Internal Leakage Xantia NOT CURED

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 04 Nov 2006, 08:30

Morning

I've had an ongoing problem since I got my Xantia last Christmas which I've posted various threads about but still not cured. Through process of elimination I have now come to the stage where it my be internal leakage.

The symptoms are;Regulator cycling at 6-16 seconds apart
Front suspension drops down nearly to bump
stops after 5 minutes

I don't mind the front dropping but it is the regulator cycles that worries me because the Accumulator sphere is obviously not being pressured up.

Points to bear in mind;Its had 2 new accumulator spheres
I've done lots of citerobics
It had a new regulator last year
and a new hyd pump before that
I've reseated the ball bearing in the regulator
It's had an LHM change
and remember it's NON antisink

I believe, looking at all the above bits that were replaced by the previous owner that this has been a long standing problem!

Someone briefly mentioned the other day about checking for internal leakage. Is it just a case of disconnecting return pipes? if so where.

Your help would be gratefully appreciated

regards

davetd

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 04 Nov 2006, 08:49

The most likely candidates are the front struts. There is a rubber (like) return pipe from each - have a good look at it and try and find a join - and disconnect it. With a healthy strut nothing should come out (well a few drops occasionally) If you've got a continuous flow - there's your problem.

On a BX they tend to leak where the leakoff pipes are attached - and often owners try replacing the leakoff pipes and junction. In fact they have become overwhelmed - so this is a waste of time and money.

Xantia struts are much more durable than BX ones but will let go eventually.

The height corrector is unlikely to be the problem but it is possible - again take the leakoff pipe off and look for the flow.

You may be able to disconnect the pipe at the reservoir end if you know which pipe it is.

Have a look at the Citroeny site (www.citroeny.cz) (servis - then Xantia and use your imagination. - seems to be a 164 page document on hydraulics there - and has nice diagrams of everything together with a text in a language other than English - and covers XM as well)

http://citroeny.cz/servis/data/xantia/X ... matika.pdf

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 04 Nov 2006, 12:16

Dave -

Your '93 Xantia will have the first (now discontinued) version of the power steering system. This is exactly the same system as found on the BX with power steering.
This system incorporates a Flow Divider Unit which priorities the power steering when pressure needed here.
This FD unit is a squarish device with 5 pipes connected located on the front flange of the gearbox.
The FD is known to cause all sorts of problems once its reached a high mileage.
The same unit is found on BX & Xantia models - and may be swapped directly.

Mostly a defective (internal leaking) FD can be diagnosed by turning the steering wheel to either end stop and hold it there. Then the system should calm down and the clicking from regulator settle down.

Later ('95 on) Xantias have the 2 port pump which incorporates a separate pump section for the power steering.

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 04 Nov 2006, 12:42

Anders,

Just tried your tip I didn't get any regulator clicking when steering on full lock, just either belt noise or the systems whooshing sound continuously.

When I released the steering wheel the regulator clicked/whooshed every 15 seconds (short whooshes)

Does this confirm your theory to you?

Can the FD units be overhauled/bought new/exchanged or is it pot luck from a scrapyard

davetd

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 04 Nov 2006, 12:56

No is the simple answer. The function of the Flow Diverter Valve is simply to divert pressurised LHM to the steering when required - which is exactly what it has done hence the cessation of ticking - as not enough LHM iss reaching the regulator to make it cycle.

Firstly the drive belt MUST not slip at any time if the thing is to work properly.

I'm surprised you can hear anything when the wheel is turned - unless there is air in the system there shouldn't really be any noise. If there is air - check the hose from the reservoir to the pump and all your troubles could be gone.

The circuit is - pump, FDV, regulator/accumulator. There are 3 ways for LHM to get out of the accumulator, one is down the piston in the middle of the accumulator mount face, another is back the way it came via the non-return valve, and the 3rd is onward to the rest of the system. The non-return valve isolates the FDV and pump etc - so if the front is sinking in 5 minutes then the fault cannot lie in the FDV.

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 04 Nov 2006, 14:28

Thanks for your replies

I'll check my return pipes this afternoon

davetd

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 05 Nov 2006, 14:01

I have tried Jeremy's suggestion

I have disconected the return pipe on the front struts, where the rubber pipe (from strut) joins the smaller plastic pipe, (I believe returning to the resevoir).

There is nothing coming from the rubber pipe attached to the strut, but it flows from the smaller pipe going back to the resevoir.

Did I do right?

and can I eliminate the front struts from my investigation?

I have also checked the return pipes on the resevoir, using the diagram on Jeremy's post;

on pipe 7- steering valve return-it squirted across the garage
on pipe 6- brake valve abs - there was a steady stream
on pipe 5- height corrector - dripping
on pipe 4-hight corrector FDV - dripping
on pipe 3- nothing
on pipe 2- steady stream

cheers

davetd

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 06 Nov 2006, 19:59

I'm planning on doing the required work this weekend, and a bit of help in the diagnosis would be much appreciated! (you know who I mean Anders and Jeremy)!

regards

davetd

slim123 · Unread post by **slim123** » 06 Nov 2006, 22:16

[quote="AndersDK"]Dave -

Your '93 Xantia will have the first (now discontinued) version of the power steering system. This is exactly the same system as found on the BX with power steering.

The same unit is found on BX & Xantia models - and may be swapped directly.

Sorry but there is a problem here!!!!!!!!!!!

The Xantia power steering, although looks the same, is not the same.

The difference is, the ram on the Xantia is different, so the flow valve needs to supply fluid at 150- constant.

The BX flow valve is set to supply the ram at 140- constant.

So although they are the same basic part, they are set at different pressures, a BX flow valve will not supply enough pressure for the Xantia ram. BUT an XM flow valve will.

The steering is an open center system, so as suggested before put the steering on full lock, this will in effect remove the flow valve from the system, if the clicking stops then 99% certain that the flow vave is the problem.

Regards
Slim.

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 12 Nov 2006, 13:32

I bled the brakes yesterday and this has improved things considerably. Regulator cycles 30-70 seconds now. As the ticking settles down it builds up the time between each tick.

Interestingly when bleeding the brake system yesterday, I did the front first (NSF then OSF) as directed by a post on the forum and it was after doing this that the regulator slowed down, (I noticed while I was putting the wheel back on and taking off the next one). I know for a fact that just before I aquired the car last year it had new front pads and discs. Could it be to do with this?

I also found that the jubilee clip on the pump end of the hose from the resevoir had about 15 turns left in it

I'll give it a few days to check the ticking interval doesn't deteriorate again and then I'll confirm it's definately cured. 8)

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 12 Nov 2006, 17:48

Your loose jubilee clip was probably contributing a lot to your problem. If the pump is sucking air its not going to pump fluid very effectively.

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 13 Nov 2006, 20:40

After my jubilant post yesterday, my Xantia has gone back to its 1 woosh every 10 seconds behaviour after my usual 80 mile drive to work.

Any help would be gratefully received!

regards

davetd

slim123 · Unread post by **slim123** » 13 Nov 2006, 20:54

Thought it would after I read that it's cured, Citroens have a funny way of doing this, you can change the brake pads and it will be fine for a couple of days, then go back to it's old self.

Me thinks that simply disturbing the hydraulic system can provde a tempory "cure" just to lure you into a false sense of achievement!!

My money is still on the flow valve, why not spend a couple of minutes on the phone to Pleiades, they are very helpfull and what's more will give you the benifit of their opinion for free, without trying to flog you something that you dont need.

Give them a ring on 01487 831239 and tell em Slim sent ya.

Regards
Slim.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 13 Nov 2006, 21:15

Have a good look at the supply hose from the reservoir to the pump again - worked yesterday - so has it gone wrong again? Are the ends bad? Has the LHM level dropped? Has the pipe been cut short and now pulls tight? Has it perished?

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 13 Nov 2006, 21:33

I have had the same experience as Slim, any work you do seems to improve the efficiency of the system for a few hours and then it reverts to normal, probably because the system has been 'disturbed' if someone can tell me why, I would be pleased to know!

I have a large quantity of fluid returning from the pipe that goes to the regulator and steering rack, I have changed the regulator albeit for a secondhand one and the fault still persists. I changed the rack on the last XM and I'm not keen on doing it again!