Running on Vegetable oil

Wolfie · Unread post by **Wolfie** » 29 Jul 2003, 18:09

Having looked around there seems to be a lot of diesel owners here, and I wondered how many peeps here know that you can run on veggy oil?
I have been running in it for 6 months with no problems[8D] In fact I use recycled oil at 20p a litre a little dear but it comes ready filtered. Im running a 50/50 mix in summer as I have not converted yet to 100% (a few little mods required for that) mine runs quiter , smoother, greener, and cheaper and slightly better performance to boot. I have no problems whatsoever despite not having the bosch injector which is supposed to handle the extra prssure better. Remember no mods needed to do this just straight in the tank but no more than 50/50 in the summer would be my advice or 70/30 in winter or you can go 100% with a few swicthing valves, an extra tank , bit of pipping and copper pipe.
legal? depends... it is if you register and pay tax on top but you do have to tell them how much you have used retrospectively in your return and it is only 25p a litre so still cheaper especially if you have'nt used much [;)] or register then...........
or you keeep it quite, as dipping the tank wont show any difference only difference is the exhaust smell, the strenght of this depends on ratio used and if you are using new or pre used oil so if you get stopped by a keen copper who's bright (that's narrowed the chances alot lol) and stands by your exhaust while your running it could result in you getting caught but as this is the first time you have just tried it with 10 litres [;)] to see if all is ok theres not alot of back tax to pay, or register have the forms in car and remember its retrospective lol.
Not suggesting any one should break the law as we all know the motorist pays very little in taxes already[:0][:0]
I of course pay all my taxes but the choice is yours
Hope this gives rise to some interest

blueboy2001 · Unread post by **blueboy2001** » 29 Jul 2003, 19:28

If you do decide to run on oil or any other "alternative" fuel, then you would be extremely well advised to register with Customs and Excise. They are tightening right up on this, and a C+E inspection is no longer one man and his dog turning up with a few dipping rods, they now have vehicles kitted out with mini laboratories in the back where they can test fuel on the spot. If you run on anything other than pure diesel, then a simpe hydrometer test will show it up in seconds and thats not a high-tech piece of kit at all. They can also spot most things through an exhaust gas analysis.
If you are caught running on bootleg fuel they will take your car off you and fine you somewhere between £500 - £2000. Don't pay the fine and your car gets crushed.
I know of a good bloke who had a haulage business, he was having a bit of a hard time and had used some red diesel in a couple of the wagons. He got 18 months in prison and a very hefty fine.
Keep it legal. C+E don't need a warrant.

Wolfie · Unread post by **Wolfie** » 29 Jul 2003, 19:55

I agree that is best to register first then your completely legal. But how much you haved used each month in your return [;)] and when do you first start sending it in is then down to the user, where they could be economical with the truth [;)]
1/ Haulauge firms are prime targets and to do it on a fleet is asking for trouble DOH! [:o)] plus he used illegal red.
2/ Veg oil is not bootleg fuel! this is not ilegally cleaned red derv.
3/ It is legal PROVIDING YOUR REGGED.
4/ Mum should be the word if you do it anyway as a matter of course.
And it is a near totally green reusable grown fuel. Why o why I wonder it is not pushed by the goverment, oh yes it's hard to claim tax at source cant Put 70p a litre on your cooking oils, cant tax the old chip oil arh now we see why the government turns a blind eye and hopes it stays low key bugger the enviroment in the mean time [:(!]

mipster · Unread post by **mipster** » 29 Jul 2003, 21:00

What sort of car are you running on veggie oil wolfie?
How do you mix the 2 fuels together and where do you source the 20p/litre oil from?
And 1 more question [:)]
Do you change the engine oil more often?
cheers
mipzter

Wolfie · Unread post by **Wolfie** » 29 Jul 2003, 21:50

I run a Xantia Turbo D but any diesel models are ok with the exception of the new HDI types and apparently Bosch injectors are more hardy although mines a lucas one, Mercs can go 100% without any mods but may be hard to start in the winter.
Mixing is as simple as look to see how many litres you have put in at the pump then put the same direct into the tank at home of veg oil (mixes naturally) thats for a 50/50 ratio of course, others are simple to work out, but it makes sense to start off as I did at say 80/20 see how she runs then work up. thats 20% veg oil.
Tesco is cheapest for new at 40p a litre, or pick up the yellow pages and look under oil maybe you will find a recycler/dealer in your area then give them a ring and see. Used oil from chip shops, hotels etc is free they would glady let you have it if not ask them who they sell it to then you have a source, and is great green way forward second use! but you do need to filter out the bits and to seperate any water but as water stays at the bottom this is quite easy to do. Dealers will charge about 10p a litre for used unfiltered.
No I do not change my oil more and so far have seen no change in usage either, In fact the whole car runs better and quieter. I must stress though as the fuel becomes thicker (highter veg ratio) then you put more stress on your injector pump and the cam belt hence why I wont go above 50/50 until I install a heater to thin the fuel between the filter and the injector pump.

mbunting · Unread post by **mbunting** » 29 Jul 2003, 22:24

Wolfie,
I've had no problems on 100% ( new, pure ) - I tried three litres when I ran out of dino-diesel. Don't forget that the fuel filter housing is actually heated by the coolant around it once the engine is warm, and the coolant there is warm VERY quickly because it's just come from the head !
Haven't tried any recently, although like you, I noticed a big reduction in noise, a slight improvement in economy, but it made me feel hungry !!!

Wolfie · Unread post by **Wolfie** » 29 Jul 2003, 23:46

100% really, on a lucas pump? maybe no mods required then in terms of thinning the fuel before it enters the injector pump, starting is a bit ropey for me at more then 50% in colder weather so I need to aleast convert to dual tanks before running at 100% Yeah I know it's nice of Citroen to fit a fuel heater under the filter for us as standard, thats why I only made a single heat exchanger figured once is enough and was going heat up the fuel after the filter although maybe not needed? just about to mod so I can run at 100% just need some cheap 2 way electro valves. I often wonder if peeps wonder where the chip van is in a traffic jam lol.

mipster · Unread post by **mipster** » 30 Jul 2003, 00:09

The reason for changing the oil more often is that using vegoil increases the particulate build up in the oil and makes it more acidic, both of which reduce it's effectiveness.
How much thought have you given to heating the oil and it's path around the various components (I've a Xantia TD as well BTW). As well as how to get it into the fuel pump/injector there's also the issue of what to do with the return pipes. My first thought was to just put the return into 1 tank but that may put too much vegoil into the diesel or overfill a tank. A solution would be to recycle it back into the fuel inlet using a one-way valve to avoid creating a circuit.
I think it's best to have an independent filter for the vegoil otherwise the main filter needs draining of vegoil and filling with diesel before the engine should be switched off to avoid starting problems.
My prefered method is to have a seperate, heated filter for the vegoil and break into the fuel line just before the pump. What I would like to do would be to avoid having an extra pump to cope with pumping the vegoil around so I'm looking into using coolant to heat the whole vegoil tank to a decent temp and using glowplugs to give it a further increase in temp befor it hits the existing fuel pump.
What I really want is a viscosity sensor and a valve that controls the diesel/vegoil mix. I don't suppose you've found one?
Would you use the extra tank for diesel or vegoil and what would it's location be?
Interior space is very important for me so I'm eyeing up the space near the coolant header tank.
mipzter

mipster · Unread post by **mipster** » 30 Jul 2003, 00:18

<i> A solution would be to recycle it back into the fuel inlet using a one-way valve to avoid creating a circuit.</i>
I ruled this out a while ago, don't know why I slipped it on

Wolfie · Unread post by **Wolfie** » 30 Jul 2003, 00:35

If you fit two 3 way elctro valves with an extra tank say 10 litres or more for your diesel in the boot then use veg in main tank, you can then switch both returns at the same time as you switch the feeds so diesel to diesel and veg to veg no need for special fitters most compentent DIYers can do it easily. fit the switch incar then you must remember to switch over to diesel a mile or so before you end your journey so purging the vegoil then it will start as normally on the diesel tank then you switch back to veg and so on and in the winter you can wait a litle first to hot it up. split the feed in before the fuel pump then yes i am cutting out the top hose to insert my heat exchanger will post a pic later of it (dont laugh) thats if pics are allowed if not a link to it but only to heat the supply. What you suggest is nice but I just like to keep it simple and for around £100 total cost lol

mbunting · Unread post by **mbunting** » 30 Jul 2003, 13:27

Wolfie,
100% on a Bosch pump - no problems, less visible smoke, smoother etc..
I had thought about a subtle approach of 'drip feeding' a 2L 'Coke' bottle of SVO into the fuel feed - straight into the fuel pump.
The trouble with putting it into the tank is that it doesn't mix with dino-diesel, so you end up using all your dino from the tank, then you reach the SVO layer, and smell like a chippy !
By drip-feeding it into the fuel pump directly, you overcome this 'problem'.
I'd thought about an electo-valve linked to a 555 timer circuit giving 5 second pulses of SVO, but only enabled once the coolant is up to temperature.

mipster · Unread post by **mipster** » 30 Jul 2003, 14:29

I wouldn't be happy converting my main tank to run on SVO since I often take trips requiring a fill-up before I return home and putting diesel into the heated circuit may not be very wise.
I'm worried about the mixing properties of SVO and diesel as well - I always picture 2 layers in the tank.
I like the idea of mixing the 2 fuels just before the pump, how do you 'pump' the SVO? Given a choice won't the existing pump draw in more diesel than vegoil since it's less viscous?
And here's a thought if running on high SVO percentages with no pre-heating. Carry a 5 litre can of diesel and be prepared to break into the fuel line and start out of the can.
mipster

mbunting · Unread post by **mbunting** » 30 Jul 2003, 14:53

The idea is that you don't give it a 'choice', you use a valve to dictate which source the pump draws from.
For example, you could link it up to a sensor to detect movement, then you could run on SVO when at idle, and immediately switch to dino-diesel when moving.
You may even be able to argue that you're not using SVO for propulsion, but for a stationary engine, and therefore the fuel is not taxable !
The fuel system works by sucking fuel up from the tank, so if you install a 2-1 valve mechanism, you can flick the valve at will, and the fuel will be sucked from the appropriate source. At the same time, the feed of diesel from the tank will still be there.
A little like putting a straw into a drink, and putting your finger over the top of the straw - the liquid will stay in the straw if you lift it out.

mipster · Unread post by **mipster** » 30 Jul 2003, 15:03

<i> The idea is that you don't give it a 'choice', you use a valve to dictate which source the pump draws from.
</i>
I was commenting on the idea of drip-feeding SVO into the fuel supply so it mixes with dino-diesel [:)]
I'm happy with the arrangement of valves etc - my limiting factor is tank placement.
To illustrate, at the moment my car had the rear seats removed, the passanger seat reclined fully and 2 windsurfing boards with 6 sails, 3 masts and the associated kit put inside.
And if it's windy after work I'm going straight to the beach [:D][:D]

Gavin1 · Unread post by **Gavin1** » 30 Jul 2003, 17:23

One piece of advice - don't even think about it at all on a lucas pump - not even running 50 50 or whatever mix because you can't guarantee that the mix hasn't settled out a little when you start the car on a frosty morning when the veg oil is at its thickest. I know - I have had to lucas fuel pumps die on me both running 50 / 50 mixes and both soon after starting before the coolant had got hot.
If you are going to use veg oil then do use a bosch fuel pump and use a two tank system with a change over valve.