Suspension help Xantia

[RoadkillUK]

I know suspension has been covered before (a little) but I can't seem to find a message that covers ALL my problems
R reg, 1998, new shape.
1.9 TD Saloon.
I've owned this car now for over a year, shortly after I bought it, the plastic connector for the rear height corrector broke and I got it replaced, it's still in one piece so I doubt that's the problem.
Firstly, when I park up my car it sometimes drops down but not fully, now as far as I know it's not meant to. When I start the car the next morning, as I'm turning the engine over (before it 'catches'), the car then drops to the floor fully. (This has happened since I got the car)
Just yesterday, I noticed the height of the back end of the car was very low and that would explain why the ride was so harsh. I took the car up to it's highest level no problem, but then I tried to put it back down to the floor again. The front went down no problem but the back stuck up in the air still and I had to drive it home from work like that.
I parked the car up for the night and the front dropped a little (like I explained earlier) but the back stayed where it was. This morning I get into the car to go to work and as I'm turning the engine the back end sinks to the floor again.
To summerise ... the car sinks when it shouldn't (parked up and starting engine), the back end has 2 positions atm .. in the sky or on the floor.
I have been told (over the phone) that the problem is most likely to be the 'Height Corrector', at £85 I'd like to be reasonably sure that this is the problem.
All help and input is appreciated.

[AndersDK]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RoadkillUK</i>

To summerise ... the car sinks when it shouldn't (parked up and starting engine), the back end has 2 positions atm .. in the sky or on the floor.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That is in fact the symptom on a broken plastic link ?
- which again points to a sticking HC.

[Mandrake]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RoadkillUK</i>

I know suspension has been covered before (a little) but I can't seem to find a message that covers ALL my problems
R reg, 1998, new shape.
1.9 TD Saloon.
I've owned this car now for over a year, shortly after I bought it, the plastic connector for the rear height corrector broke and I got it replaced, it's still in one piece so I doubt that's the problem.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
So you checked its still intact after the problem you described later in the message ?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Firstly, when I park up my car it sometimes drops down but not fully, now as far as I know it's not meant to. When I start the car the next morning, as I'm turning the engine over (before it 'catches'), the car then drops to the floor fully. (This has happened since I got the car)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Most likely the anti-sink sphere at the back needs replacing. This sounds like normal behaviour for a flat anti-sink sphere.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Just yesterday, I noticed the height of the back end of the car was very low and that would explain why the ride was so harsh. I took the car up to it's highest level no problem, but then I tried to put it back down to the floor again. The front went down no problem but the back stuck up in the air still and I had to drive it home from work like that.
I parked the car up for the night and the front dropped a little (like I explained earlier) but the back stayed where it was. This morning I get into the car to go to work and as I'm turning the engine the back end sinks to the floor again.
To summerise ... the car sinks when it shouldn't (parked up and starting engine), the back end has 2 positions atm .. in the sky or on the floor.
I have been told (over the phone) that the problem is most likely to be the 'Height Corrector', at £85 I'd like to be reasonably sure that this is the problem.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The actual height corrector unit seldom ever gives problems as it is an extremely simple and self-lubricating device, but the linkages that connect it to the anti-roll bar and the manual height override control are not so reliable and especially at the rear are prone to rusting/seizing up especially if the manual height control is seldom used. (The pivot points of the linkage literally rust together)
If you can back up the car onto some stands which will allow you to look under the car safely while the suspension is right down you should be able to inspect this linkage and give it a good dose of penetrating lubricant (I prefer LPS) then working the manual height control lever back and forth.
Assuming it frees up properly you probably want to grease the joints in the linkage to help prevent it happening again.
Usually the reason for the plastic linkage snapping in the first place is the other linkages seizing up putting too much strain on the plastic.
There are lots of posts on the forum with more details about this common problem.
Regards,
Simon

[RoadkillUK]

Thanks all so far, I have had a look at the linkages, but I need a second person to move the manual height controller. I have a little time tonight so I'll stick it up on axle stands and have a *really* good look at it. Once again, thanks.

[RoadkillUK]

OK, I've had a look and the lever inside the car connects and moves 2 wire type levers at the back which I assume is connected to the height controller. Then I go on to assume that it is the job of the height controller to move the white plastic connector (which is still in one peice)?
If this is the case then the height controller isn't working because there is no movement of the white plastic connector.
How does that sound?

[jeremy]

about right! - all you need do now is to free off the linkages making sure you don't kill yourself at the same time - ie make sure the car is properly supported with enough room for you if it drops when working on these linkages.
jeremy

[RoadkillUK]

Right, update before I get a wash
I've been hard at it today replacing the 3 spheres on the back end. I tried to get the spheres off as per book (lower susp. to minimum and depressurise the system), didn't work, the spheres were solid so I decided to try the 1/4 turn when pressurised approach which worked perfectly. Also if anyone thinks they can do it without a tool, you're wrong (I welded my own).
Right the 2 outer ones were then done. I proceded to change the middle one, luckily I felt some resistance once I'd 'cracked' it, did a little research on this smashing site to find that if I continue to unscrew it I would end up with a twisted hydraulic pipe as there is a connector behind that sphere (9mm spanner to hold it steady works fine). After removing it I found that I had bought the wrong sphere (nevermind it's loose now I'll do it Monday).
I bought the height controller too but I wanted to see if I could sort it out without replacing it. As mentioned by Jeremy, the linkages were a little rusty so I spent a good 1/2 hour with a hammer and a metal bar 'releasing' it then I greased it up nicely. Also the bit that connects the 'axle' to the white clip was loose which is why the car didn't 'know' whether it was up or down.
I hope that helps anyone having similar problems.
BTW, that 1/2 hour saved me £100 for a replacement height controller, which after looking under the car will be spent on a new exhaust

[sparksie]

Hi all

It has been a very long time, but I'm still around and amazingly still getting sterling service from Cit.
I've just (with a lump in my throat) had to declare her temporarily off road, because she needs the rear suspension spheres done and the brake accumulator sphere hasn't worked for some time. I also need to sort out the nsr quarter panel, which is finally holed.
Trouble is, due to new circumstances, all of the above has to be accomplished in the open, without access to a pit/lift and the weather has NOT been suitable this summer.
While I'm under there, I plan on changing the middle sphere at the back, as that hasn't been done in my time and must therefore be dead/dying too. I confess I don't know the function of this, nor how to diagnose it, but given the other five need/have needed doing, I reckon that one must too.
My question is, how do I identify them and, perhaps more importantly, when looking at four new spheres in a box, how do i make sure I put the right one in the right place?
I tried searching for Xantia sphere, but the search engine rejected Xantia and sphere as being too common, so apologies all. I know this has definitely been covered before, but the system won't let me look for it.
Thanks guys

[xantia_v6]

While I'm under there, I plan on changing the middle sphere at the back, as that hasn't been done in my time and must therefore be dead/dying too. I confess I don't know the function of this, nor how to diagnose it, but given the other five need/have needed doing, I reckon that one must too.

As you seem to have standard (non-hydractive) suspension, the 3rd sphere at the rear is usually called the anti-sink sphere, but its actual funtion is a rear brake accumulator, providing an extra supply of hydraulic pressure just for the rear brakes, for the event of a catastrophic failure of the front brake system and main accumulator.

My question is, how do I identify them and, perhaps more importantly, when looking at four new spheres in a box, how do i make sure I put the right one in the right place?

If you are lucky, the replacement spheres will have part numbers stamped on them, making the job easy, but otherwise, the anti-sink sphere is unique in that rather than screwing into a threaded socket, it is held directly onto a mounting bracket with a large nut at the back. a 3.5 mm hydraulic pipe and flare fitting is screwed into the neck of the shere. This makes them easy to identify, because they are the only spheres with internally threaded holes. But you must undo the 3.5 mm pipe before twisting the sphere, or you will (easily) damage the pipe, causing yourself grief.

The main accumulator has a large hole in the neck, so is easily identifiable.

The front and rear corner spheres look quite similar, with damper valves in the neck, but the front spheres have a slightly larger hole (about 1.5 mm) drilled in the centre than the rears (about 0.7 mm).

I tried searching for Xantia sphere, but the search engine rejected Xantia and sphere as being too common, so apologies all. I know this has definitely been covered before, but the system won't let me look for it.

The forum now has 2 search systems, the old phpBB search (which it sounds like you used) and a site-specific Google search which appears under the banner of most forum pages. Try using this, it produces a much better set of results in most cases.

[Hell Razor5543]

Hi all

It has been a very long time, but I'm still around and amazingly still getting sterling service from Cit.
I've just (with a lump in my throat) had to declare her temporarily off road, because she needs the rear suspension spheres done and the brake accumulator sphere hasn't worked for some time. I also need to sort out the nsr quarter panel, which is finally holed.
Trouble is, due to new circumstances, all of the above has to be accomplished in the open, without access to a pit/lift and the weather has NOT been suitable this summer.
While I'm under there, I plan on changing the middle sphere at the back, as that hasn't been done in my time and must therefore be dead/dying too. I confess I don't know the function of this, nor how to diagnose it, but given the other five need/have needed doing, I reckon that one must too.
My question is, how do I identify them and, perhaps more importantly, when looking at four new spheres in a box, how do i make sure I put the right one in the right place?
I tried searching for Xantia sphere, but the search engine rejected Xantia and sphere as being too common, so apologies all. I know this has definitely been covered before, but the system won't let me look for it.
Thanks guys

I have, in the past, used AEP Direct for replacement spheres. Their prices are good, the spheres have a recent date (well, the ones I bought did), and they know what they are on about. They may also knock off the P&P if the order is over a certain value (£50, IIRC). You will need to include the vehicle reg, as they check that what you have ordered is correct for that vehicle (and they will contact you for the reg if it isn't included, delaying shipping).

http://www.aepdirect.com/

This link explains a lot about changing the spheres and so on. I have used it, and it works well;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 22&t=24595

One forum member also designed a DIY Sphere removal tool. It can be made for under £10, and (provided it can attached to the sphere) will move almost all spheres;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=21850

I would also consider loosening the spheres off a touch (and then doing them back up hand tight) every six months or so. They only need to be hand tight, and doing this means that, when you have to replace them in the future, they should come off easily.

[sparksie]

Thanks guys.
That helps a lot.
I actually have the mother of all sphere removal tools, that I made from a large exhaust joint clamp and a yard of 2" angle iron, a long time ago, for something entirely different, but it works very well, given space to swing it.
I'm a bit worried about the remaining 4 spheres on Cit, though, as I won't be able to lift her up in the air, so the tool won't fit.
More thought required on this, before I do anything.
I can get her high enough so she can't kill me, but not much more, with the equipment I now have available, so I'm considering a new design of tool to work in confined spaces.
Has anybody done this already?

[Hell Razor5543]

How many spheres are you replacing? I have, on two occasions, had to remove very tight (but not Activa tight!) spheres, and I used a hammer and cold chisel to get them moving. The two rear struts and the front accumulator spheres were tricky, but not impossible. I knocked a small 'divot' into the central banding, and then, when there was enough to work with, angled the chisel in the direction I wanted the sphere to move. OK, it writes off the spheres, but as you are replacing them anyway this is not an issue. If you are doing 6 spheres I would support the front for long enough to get the front accumulator sphere loosened, and then support the back, loosen off the spheres, get her up high, and get on with it (back end fully supported). I was able (once the spheres were loose) to do everything in the engine bay from above, so that did not need support, but there is not enough room to work at the back unless she is up on axle stands.

Oh, by the way. Do not undo the 12mm pressure bolt on the accumulator unit more than one turn. There is a small ball bearing in there somewhere, and removing the bolt almost guarantees that ball bearing will make a bid for freedom. When I did my Xantias, I would then (after the spheres had been replaced) run the engine for a few minutes before tightening up the pressure bolt, to help any air in the system to get back to the reservoir and escape. You may also want to get a litre or so of LHM, just in case of spillages.

Bleeding the brakes is a doodle, and only needs you, a weight, and a couple of spanners (the only thing that could slow you down is if the bleed nipples are seized). Make sure that the car is bearing its weight on three wheels at a time (with the fourth properly supported), as the rear brakes are linked in some way to the rear suspension, and if there is no weight on the rear suspension there may be little or no pressure to the rear brakes. The normal bleed order is Rear Right, Rear Left, Front Right, Front Left. If the LHM is good (and you have a long enough section of suitable clear hose) you could run it from the nipple to the LHM reservoir. I have been told (but I cannot confirm) that pipe suitable for petrol will be OK for this.

EDIT; Just re-read your previous posts, and I can see you have a total of 6 spheres. It is possible to determine how good/bad the front accumulator sphere is, by the length of time between clicks. The longer the gap, the better the sphere. When I did them on Gracie the time was only a few seconds, but then it went up to well over a minute (with the new spheres fitted). As there is no way to check the status of the anti-sink sphere (without taking it off the car) you cannot know how good it is. However, it might be a good idea to replace the pair at the same time, as then you will know they are both the same age, and (hopefully) in the same condition.

[Stickyfinger]

The normal bleed order is Rear Right, Rear Left, Front Right, Front Left. If the LHM is good (and you have a long enough section of suitable clear hose) you could run it from the nipple to the LHM reservoir.

Just a note on that. If the car has not had clean fluid for a long time the LHM (in the system for the rear brakes) can be quite dirty....never did like the return to tank technique unless for full fluid exchange.

[Hell Razor5543]

The normal bleed order is Rear Right, Rear Left, Front Right, Front Left. If the LHM is good (and you have a long enough section of suitable clear hose) you could run it from the nipple to the LHM reservoir.

Just a note on that. If the car has not had clean fluid for a long time the LHM (in the system for the rear brakes) can be quite dirty....never did like the return to tank technique unless for full fluid exchange.

That was why I said "If the LHM is good...", but if it is grotty I would not recycle it.

Sparksie, what is the mileage of the Xantia? Citroen recommend changing the LHM every 36,000 miles or so, and every third change should have a Hydraflush cycle, to clean out the pipework. Hydraflush should only be used for 3,000 miles at most (but long enough to do its job), as while it does work as LHM for a short while, it is not as 'greasy', so if it is left in too long moving parts might seize.

[Stickyfinger]

true indeed, but is any used LHM "good" ?

If the miles covered is low, is there also a "time" left in recommendation with Hydraflush ?