Xantia A/C

Post your Cit/Peu/Ren air conditioning queries or advice.

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admiral51
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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

Thanks guys as always full of important and correct advice.
I think i can buy 2 ( new pattern part )fans but the diam is 320 not 305 as in my spec and think the fixing of the blades are not screw type so cannot swap the blades over even if the motor and fixing points are the same.
No one locally is prepared to strip and rebuild the motors even if they advertise the can do it so between a rock and a hard place, will need to delve deeper on the web to see what i can find.
I know i have a MK1 o/s front wing in the loft along with a radiator and washer fluid bottle, just wonder what else i put up there ????

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

I know its only a temp fix and not for getting the A/C up and running but whilst i have 1 working fan if i swap them round then if temp gets a little high i should have 1 fan working on slow and should also kick in on full chat if needed, 1 is better than none ?
And i could have it running full time on slow if i have blower on and A/C button on or set to demist?
Just trying to avoid issues whilst i look to getting a full pair working
Colin

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by xantia_v6 »

Swapping the fans will make no difference, other than the other one will come on at high speed. You would still have no low speed fans and one high speed fan.

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

Yes you are correct as usual was just thinking of a work around temp fix.
As i do not have access to Service Box anymore could someone have a look and see if they can identify the measurements of the OE fitted frame for the fans.
I have found This on the Bay and think if it comes complete then atleast i know they will both be new and of the same rating.

I have removed the frame before, and no it is not a 5 minute job as from memory i have to remove front bumper and move both rads as they sit over the frame, A/C is not working so no issue there, i think i can get away with lifting up the cooling rad but if need be i can remove.
I have a week off early august so can spend a few days to do it, gotta keep it as she is a keeper :)

And A/C is not the issue, i need to make sure the cooling side of things work, i can always open the windows lol

Colin

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

I think also from memory the 3 relay plugs can be pushed out and the wiring loom unclipped from the frame so i can just do a BOL and refit as reversal of the removal process :)

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by white exec »

No dimensions on Sbox Parts, but this is the item:
2.0 HDi Xan cooling.JPG

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

Thanks Chris but it does look very similar, just wondering if the diameter on the fans is 305 and the diameter on the housing is 320 hence the difference for clearance ??
Honest opinion needed, no pressure but looking at both would you go for it lol
Colin

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by white exec »

Would guess that the 305 is the actual fan diameter. Not much point in specifying the aperture size.
If looking at that ebay item, why not just measure your own existing unit on the car, and contact the seller to check his dimensions?

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

will be doing that tomorrow just being a numpty and asking for advice from those that i trust advice from :)

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

I have measured the fan diameter and can confirm it to be 320 as per the diagram, why it shows as 305 on service box i have no idea.
Difficult to measure the height accurately but give or take a few mm it is close to the 450 and the length is bang on at 688 and so is the spacing between the locating holes so i may just take a punt and order it, looks like a few days dismantling coming up unless they are screw fixings for the blades in which case scrapped knuckles will ensue :)

Thanks again for the helpful advice, really appreciate it

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

Been a while i know, but have some kind of an update.
I did obtain a pair of fans when i got a job lot of old spares but on inspection one was a little notchy and stiff so thanks to Sir Jim i now have a known working pair of cooling fans.
So today i took the plunge and as expected my memory is not as bad as i hoped it was :( the last time i did this job i had both A/C and cooling rads out, front bumper removed whilst i was chasing a broken wire in the loom under the radiator on a MK1 2.0 16v VSX. There is very very little room to get clearance between the A/C rad and the 10mm nuts holding the fan motors into the frame even after i removed the blades from the motors, and the frame cannot be removed unless both rads are removed as the locating lugs are below them.
So back to square one then with the fans from Sir Jim sat in the box they arrived in :(

Or maybe not :)
Once the blades are removed you have better access to the motors themselves, and the front of them have holes in that you can see the copper ( ?) windings of the motors and a solid metal outer casing. So knowing that i could get the motors to work by flicking the blades and/or thumping the slam panel guess what i did.

That's right got my lump hammer out and gave the pair of them a not so gentle tap or 2, they didn't work in the current state so what harm could i do, and a fair of black/grey dust was expelled from the pair of them.
Now you are all probably going to tell me i am being really stupid for
a: The above
b: What i did next
I found a can of WD40 Electrical Contact cleaner, only about 25% left in it but what the heck, i sprayed it into both motors via the holes in the casing and went for a cuppa to let it dry.

Okay then lets see what happens if we start the engine and the interior blower set to demist and then turn the blower on.... both motors start to spin at slow speed, turn blower off motors stop. Did this for maybe 7-8 times same result. So being brave blower set to floor and blower on no action from the motors, press the A/C button and both motors start up as they should do, stop when the A/C button is switched off, i did this for another 6-7 times with the same result.
So with engine running and motors running together at slow speed with A/C on via button or because the setting was to demist what happens when you pull the thermostat plug, do they go full speed as they should, yes they do and when you put the plug back they both go back to slow speed as they should.
So what to do next, lets put the blades back on and try the same tests.
Exactly the same results, everything works as it should.
Now i have been moving the motors by hand when taking the blades off and putting them back on, so if they were sticky they didn't have time to settle down so i left it 3 hrs and went back out, started car up and both fans were working as per the previous tests
Now i am not even 70% sure the problem has been fixed, i still have my doubts over the state of the existing fans, i will check again in the morning to see if they behave like they did today but in terms of electrical connections and parameters from the various ECU's that control them everything is correct.
But i cannot get the car up to temperature to check if the fans kick in when they should, or more to the point what temp the fans should kick in at slow speed.
I have a distant memory of Sir Jim or maybe Xaccers cutting down a 10mm socket and grinding flats on it to allow use of a spanner to remove the nuts without the need to remove the bumper/rads etc so will take some measurements tomorrow as the lower fixings are closer to the A/C rad than the top ones to see if can get something made up.

Colin
Last edited by admiral51 on 10 Apr 2021, 10:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by white exec »

Your hefty squirt of WD into the fan motors might have freed up not a sticking fan bearing, but a sticky/stuck motor brush in its holder, or poor contact of brush to commutator.

If you can open up the motors, you might be able to examine, clean up commutator, brushes (renew?), etc.
At least all your tests show the system is operating properly.

At slow speed, the two fans will be operating in series, so it only takes one defective (open circuit) fan to prevent both from running. On fast speed, they're in parallel, so the good one will operate, the faulty one won't.

The fan cut-in temperatures will be listed in the Xantia mechanic's (Private Cars) booklets, in Resources section.

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by admiral51 »

Cheers Chris
I know i have been going round in circles on this issue, and it has been going on for a couple of years, but with the HDi running so cool even in stop start traffic, it is so hard to get it up to temp to get the fans workings even known good working ones. I drive it 70 ish miles 5 days a week and have done for 18 months or so over the last 2 years and have yet to see the temp gauge go above 90, yes its early in the morning 35 mile trip but in the evening with stop start traffic it just sits there saying "im happy" so as much i would like the A/C working for comfort i would like the fans to do the main job of cooling the engine if and when needed.
Have not refitted the grill between bumper and bonnet so happy to get some pics tomorrow of blades removed to show the current state of the motors.
The car had been driven very little before i got it, spent 10 years in Spain but maybe < 900 miles a year so guess short journeys, maybe the fans have not actually been used that much, can they get flat spots like tyres if the comparison makes any sense.
Colin

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white exec
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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by white exec »

Fans should not deteriorate with lack of use.
A bit counter-intuitively, although the A/C radiator will throw out extra heat, such is the efficiency of our twin-fan systems that many of these engines (especially the diesels) actually run cooler when the A/C is on, with the fans on (automatically) at slow speed.
Switching the A/C on is actually a way of manually bringing on extra engine cooling early when climbing steep roads, ahead of them cutting in automatically.

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Re: Xantia A/C

Post by CitroJim »

admiral51 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 18:24
I have a distant memory of Sir or maybe Xaccers cutting down a 10mm socket and grinding flats on it to allow use of a spanner to remove the nuts without the need to remove the bumper/rads etc so will take some measurements tomorrow as the lower fixings are closer to the A/C rad than the top ones to see if can get something made up.
That was me Colin and I still have the modified socket... I should have sent it to you...

Yes, get a 1/4" drive 10mm socket, grind some flats onto it so that a 13mm spanner can fit it and off you go... Depending on the length of the socket you may have to shorten it a little...

I have had similar 'success' by bashing fans but I warn it may not last... I once disassembled a duff motor that occasionally would work with a tap and found very worn and sticky brushes...

Note that how the motors are constructed, once disassembled, reassembly is not very easy... Disassembly is no easy either... They're not made to be overhauled :(