Electric Cars:what's available?

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Mandrake
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

bobins wrote:
28 May 2021, 13:49
Price isn't necessarily an issue, but perceived quality and image are :-D I'll mention the MG to her, but might have to explain that they're not made in the UK anymore :wink:
I haven't driven the Kia e-Niro or the MG ZS so can only go by what I've seen online and extrapolation from the two EV's I have owned, but I would say the MG ZS is probably the best value for money for the range you do get (but it will not do 200 miles - it's more like 150 miles) while the Kia e-Niro is probably the best value for money in the >250 mile range category as well as the most reliable EV in the >200 mile range category.

Perceived quality and image may be an issue - the MG ZS is as pointed out Chinese made and while it is a fairly good car when you read between the lines from owners on forums there are a few limitations and shortcuts taken with the design of the car, some of them a bit silly like simple features like charging timers etc... cheap, cheerful and decent is how I would describe it.

The Kia e-Niro probably has a "low perceived quality" in the eyes of anyone who has not kept pace with how rapidly Hyundai and Kia have improved their quality in the last 20 years, to the point where their build quality and reliability far exceeds that of the majority of European Marques including our beloved PSA and Renault. 20 years ago I would have looked down my nose at Kia and never bought one, and with good reason. But today I would gladly have an e-Niro for a family car.

The engineering of the EV drivetrain in the Hyundai's and Kia's is second to none - they achieve almost unbelievably high driving efficiency compared to all other EV's, the only thing that comes close is the latest 2020 version of the Tesla Model 3 which adds a heat pump. Prior to the addition of the heat pump the e-Niro still handily beat the Model 3 for efficiency, and they're now pretty much neck and neck.

To give you an idea just how much more efficient the e-Niro (and Tesla Model 3) are than some of the European competitors, Fully charged recently did a road trip with an e-Niro and an Audi e-Tron - on that same journey the e-Niro averaged 5 miles/kWh and the e-Tron averaged 2.5 miles/kWh! (On a similar journey I reckon I'd get around 3.8 miles/kWh in my Leaf - somewhere in the middle)

Ok so the e-Tron is one of the most inefficient EV's around but some others like the i-Pace are likewise very inefficient. Inefficiency means much less range for the same battery size and also increases charging time per mile travelled since you need to charge more to cover the same distance.

If you look at reviews for the e-Niro it is generally getting very positive reviews - not everyone likes the styling of the front end or finds the styling a bit "boring" but not one review I've seen has said anything like poor build quality, poor reliability etc... some reviews are after a year of ownership and are still very positive, and I have not heard of any showstopper design flaws or reliability issues with the e-Niro yet. (The Kona had the issue with battery fires - but the cells used in the e-Niro are not sourced from the same factories that had those cell manufacturing issues for the Kona so there has been no battery recall or spate of fires with the e-Niro)

I guess my point is we need to put aside any outdated preconceptions of perceived quality and image which might date back a couple of decades or more. On the engineering and build quality side in EV's in particular Hyundai and Kia are really nailing it in the last few years, and they are really gunning for Toyota when it comes to overall reliability. The fact that Kia are willing to give a 7 year full car warranty (which includes the high voltage system) shows that they have confidence in their reliability.

And the brand new EV platform that Hyundai recently announced (which Kia will share) looks very well thought out and forward looking.

One big difference between the e-Niro and MG ZS is that the MG ZS is a traditional estate / station wagon, which is very rare among EV's (it might even be the first estate EV!) while the e-Niro is technically a crossover SUV hatchback. However despite this it's not a "high" sitting crossover - I've parked my Leaf along side the e-Niro a couple of times and to my surprise it doesn't really sit any higher than the Leaf - either driving position or roofline so it's barely a crossover, I'd call it more a "high hatchback", like the Leaf.

Width and length is also about the same as the Leaf - which is also the same width and length as a Xantia, so it's not a big car as such. Not too big, not too small, and with a much flatter wider boot than the Leaf.
Last edited by Mandrake on 03 Jun 2021, 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Sloppysod wrote:
30 May 2021, 22:57
heres one for discussion. :lol:
Why do EV's need to be serviced so frequently, I understand a Leaf has 6,000 mile intervals, a E-Niro every 10,000 mile intervals, it apears that the service plans are very similar to ICE vehicles.
Why not like Tesla - when the car tells you - possibly never!!
If I have these numbers wrong I am sure someone will tell me :-D
You've definitely got the Leaf numbers wrong. It's every 18,000 miles or 12 months for the Leaf, alternating between a "major" and "minor" service.

Like most scheduled EV servicing it's a bit of a scam to be honest, the major service includes brake fluid and pollen filter change, the minor service does not include brake fluid, so not sure what else they're doing aside from the pollen filter in a minor service! :roll:

As with the Ion before it, I will only be taking my Leaf in for its "service" to maintain the 8 year extended battery warranty. (The car is already out of the 3 year whole car warranty)

There is nothing in the "service" schedule that I couldn't do myself. The major service is now £199 and minor service £149. Prior to 2018 it was only £130 for the major service and £99 for the minor service so they have jacked up the prices.

Interesting thing though - confirmed by the independent dealer I bought my Leaf from - any VAT registered garage can do the service and still maintain the battery warranty, so you don't have to take it to Nissan specifically. As long as they're able to do what's demanded by the service schedule - which aside from visual checks is just brake fluid and pollen filter change, really, and stamp the book, you're fine.

The e-Niro is 10,000 miles yes, and that is one strike against the e-Niro. It is unnecessarily often, with no good reason I can see. This is an outlier though, most EV's are more like the Leaf's schedule with a reasonably generous mileage.

Tesla do have a service schedule but it is voluntary - you do not forfeit any warranties by not taking a Tesla for regular servicing.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by RichardW »

What makes the E-tron and I-pace so inefficient? They must be generating a lot of waste heat somewhere... Motor, battery, inverter, gearbox, tyres - maybe it's just a combination of all of them, with JLR / VAG not focussing on these areas, because they can get away with it.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 13:10
What makes the E-tron and I-pace so inefficient? They must be generating a lot of waste heat somewhere... Motor, battery, inverter, gearbox, tyres - maybe it's just a combination of all of them, with JLR / VAG not focussing on these areas, because they can get away with it.
It's got me beat Richard.

I genuinely don't know why some of these European EV's are so inefficient, (or conversely why the Hyundai/Kia are so damn efficient) and it's not just because they're often big and heavy because the Tesla Model S is a pretty big heavy car (nearly 2.4 tons in some variants) yet the new "Raven" version with permanent magnet motors is very efficient overall.

I think it's a lot of factors - all of the above that you've listed and more still. Poor efficiency is probably death by a thousand cuts.

There's a few real world consumption examples on this page:

https://tbtp-ev.github.io/tbtp-results-consumption.html

Wh/mile is the unit on that table we would use here in the UK - basically the reciprocal of miles/kWh so lower is better. I note the e-Tron comes last in winter in this table with the highest consumption except for the VW E-Crafter...

Note that these tests are for constant cruising at 90/120km/hr only, so don't include factors like how efficient a car is at accelerating, how efficient the regenerative braking is etc, which is why the Kia is beaten by the Tesla here as the Model 3 is a very good motorway cruiser. (Although the Hyundai Ioniq is still very good due to being lighter and more aerodynamic than the e-Niro)

The EV database also has pretty reliable efficiency figures for many ranges of EV's. Here are their pages on the e-Niro and one of the models of e-Tron:

https://ev-database.uk/car/1338/Kia-e-Niro-64-kWh

https://ev-database.uk/car/1253/Audi-e-tron-55-quattro

For the e-Niro:

Real Energy Consumption
between 185 - 400 Wh/mi
City - Cold Weather 280 Wh/mi
Highway - Cold Weather 400 Wh/mi
Combined - Cold Weather 325 Wh/mi
City - Mild Weather 185 Wh/mi
Highway - Mild Weather 300 Wh/mi
Combined - Mild Weather 240 Wh/mi

e-Tron:

Real Energy Consumption
between 270 - 540 Wh/mi
City - Cold Weather 380 Wh/mi
Highway - Cold Weather 540 Wh/mi
Combined - Cold Weather 455 Wh/mi
City - Mild Weather 270 Wh/mi
Highway - Mild Weather 420 Wh/mi
Combined - Mild Weather 345 Wh/mi

Lower numbers are better.

To be fair, the e-Niro weighs 1845Kg and the e-Tron weighs 2595Kg, about 200Kg more than a top spec Tesla Model S, despite having an 86kWh battery vs the Model S's 100kWh. :shock:

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by bobins »

Mandrake wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 11:35

I haven't driven the Kia e-Niro or the MG ZS so can only go by what I've seen online and extrapolation from the two EV's I have owned, but I would say the MG ZS is probably the best value for money for the range you do get (but it will not do 200 miles - it's more like 150 miles) while the Kia e-Niro is probably the best value for money in the >250 mile range category as well as the most reliable EV in the >200 mile range category.

Perceived quality and image may be an issue - the MG ZS is as pointed out Chinese made and while it is a fairly good car when you read between the lines from owners on forums there are a few limitations and shortcuts taken with the design of the car, some of them a bit silly like simple features like charging timers etc... cheap, cheerful and decent is how I would describe it.
Thanks for the insightful info, Simon. I shall pass it on, but I fear the fact that there's nothing Germanic about the e-Niro (or Kona) might count against them :( I had one of my other customers ask what I'd recommend for a 7 seater - I came up with a couple of cars and advised against a Discovery due to reliability issues. She opted for a Discovery "Because my friends have got them" ](*,) :roll:

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 11:35

One big difference between the e-Niro and MG ZS is that the MG ZS is a traditional estate / station wagon, which is very rare among EV's (it might even be the first estate EV!) while the e-Niro is technically a crossover SUV hatchback.
Slip of the Keyboard Simon :?: The MG5 is the Station Wagon just out this year, and the MGZS EV is the more small suv-ey looking one which has been out for a couple of years
MG5 EV
Image
Image
MGZS EV
Image
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Sloppysod »

Mandrake wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 12:04
It's every 18,000 miles or 12 months for the Leaf, alternating between a "major" and "minor" service.
Oops, got it wrong, I that service schedule for the leaf was from a video I watched and I have not had much luck finding out service schedules for EV's.
I don't have an EV (Yet) but will do when my C5 starts failing me, or I get board with it.
I am only just starting my research, trying to keep ontop of what's out there and what's coming in the future.

Oh, thanks for the links to the EV database

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Great way of finding out about EV's is to have a chat with EV drivers.

Easy opening line "How are you enjoying your electric car?" Quite a decent proportion are enthusiastic.
When I bought mine all the EV Driving experience I had was driving about 6 miles on a Test Drive, and in spite of doing a bit of research, I was a bit lucky to get a Leaf with a 6.6 kWh on board charger, and a heat pump, both a considerable improvement on earlier versions.

No regrets from me, and its great to try something new, and I was predisposed to make it work if I could as the Bargain basement electric thread testifies, focussing more on the Second-hand EV in the 4 years old plus category.

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 19:25
Slip of the Keyboard Simon :?: The MG5 is the Station Wagon just out this year, and the MGZS EV is the more small suv-ey looking one which has been out for a couple of years
Yes a bit of a brain fart on my part. The MG5 is of course the estate and the older MG ZS is a mini SUV hatchback.

I haven't seen any MG5's on the road yet but I see quite a few MG ZS.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Something that I will never afford (!) but pretty cool all the same, the Rimac Nevera, previously known as the Rimac C2.

The prototype driven in this review is apparently fairly near the final production car. Specs are just insane and later in the video they show a stripped down car in the workshop to show what makes it tick.

Code: Select all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
Edit: can't seem to find any way to post this video (even as a code snippet) as the forum thinks the URL is a VIN number and obfuscates the URL, corrupting it... :roll: A little help mods?

See below!
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by myglaren »



Then go to:
NEW Rimac Nevera: First Drive Review & INSANE Acceleration Test | Carfection

There are several other equally interesing clips.

Have to admit a liking for these Rimacs, in contrast to most of the other offerings.

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by Mandrake »

Here's the original video I was trying to link to - I can work around it by linking to the original tweet that linked to the youtube video. :)


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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
03 Jun 2021, 23:57
Great way of finding out about EV's is to have a chat with EV drivers.
I did this myself today! To the family from London who had been touring Scotland this week in this, A 64 kWh Version of the Hyundai Kona. Very enthusiastic and very happy with their car.
Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh version
Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh version
They confirmed that they regularly achieve 6 Miles/kWh proper real world evidence of the type of stats Simon covered in his post.

Couple of gratuitous pics of the wheels front and back. Even small things like the wheel covers/ tyres can have an influence on the range achievable.
Rear wheel
Rear wheel
front wheel
front wheel
Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

I mentioned a few posts back the explosion in creativity in small ev's and e-bikes, e-scooters etc.

Now who wouldn't like a play around in this. Less then £2,000 ticket price. Its a little pick-up truck, with the add on of the hydraulic tipper truck feature.

Electrek Pick out an "awesomely Weird Alibaba Electric vehicle each week, with plenty to choose from.
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Re: Electric Cars:what's available?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The Aptera has has a bit of an outing on the thread.

viewtopic.php?p=686341&hilit=aptera#p686341

Drag coefficient of 0.13, and that's why its the shape it is, and why is can do a lot of miles on very little battery. 1,000 miles claimed for the top spec, although surely medals would have to be given for anyone mad enough to drive 1000 miles in one.
On the safety angle, (nb.. this is the USA classification which is being commented on in the Article).
Aptera shows off its ultra futuristic solar-powered Sol Electric Vehicle with 1,000 Mile Range
Three-wheeled vehicles are difficult to compare to typical four-wheeled cars though, as they conform to an entirely different set of regulations. They are technically motorcycle-class vehicles and thus a different set of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards apply. This helps reduce the development cost of the vehicles, but also means that they aren’t required to conform to the same stringent safety standards as “real” cars.

Aptera seems to have gone beyond the minimum requirements though, explaining that
“Aptera features a level of passenger safety beyond just about any other vehicle on the road today, with a Formula-1 inspired safety cell, advanced airbag technology, and energy-absorbing composite material made of steel and aluminum.”
This is the latest Video released on the Aptera


Regards Neil