Electric Cars:what's available?

[myglaren]

I think it is mainly the risk of detonation of the gas cylinders, that can be quite dramatic if it happens.
Gas powered vehicles are forbidden from the Mersey tunnel among others.

[aneesh84]

We bit off topic a little.
Just come home from Portugal, it quite surprised me the amount of underground and multi story car parks that displayed signs telling you NO GAS VEHILCES.
I understand the worry of explosion but I did wonder what the difference is between gas and petrol Vapour which is also lethal, but my main thoughts as I followed an ID4 underground ground was battery fire! If that ID was to over heat underground then catch fire as they can do and they do, they burn intensely, which would be underground in a contained area with a lot of air flow, add to that the petrol and diesel cars surrounding it I thought to myself you are going to end up with a huge problem under there, A friend of ours in Greece this year said he had noticed that on ferry ports as well, no gas vehicles.
We are changing cells on ID 3/4s like hot cakes at the moment. just one cell, car is plugged in and tester looks at the cells, then flags if it needs changing, why has not really been communicated to us, we are told if it flags change it DO NOT LET the car go out. At present we have 7 in our carpark waiting and now 21 old cells in our container, that nobody seems to want, there are a couple of Companies who will take the full battery off us but do not want just the cells for some reason, well not yet they are saying, VW do not want them back and under no circumstance are we to send the old units back.
We have recently been made to spend 10K on a coolant bleeding system to fill these EV's as NO airlocks are permitted, so the machine forces coolant in and operates valves on the vehicle to fill it we then have to put a tag on the coolant bottle akin to those found of electric/gas meters to stop you tampering with them, but I do wonder as these cars get older how many will get cut off and coolant added, if there is a drop in coolant it is suppose to be returned to dealer ASAP but I do wonder how many owners will cut it off and chuck some antifreeze in it with out realising the cycle they may be starting.
Surprises me as gas is actually closer to the habits we now use with IC cars yet there is push back on it already, were as EV's are not you have long charge hours in some places, work colleague took a ID BUZZ to Scotland in June and he said it cost him more than going in his Tiguan the year before, taking away fuel costs as he wasn't sure how much the charge up cost would be all together he said the fact you had to stop and wait anything from an hour up to 4 hours for charging in some places meant you spent money, that you ordinarily would not of, they did not cover the dame miles in the BUZZ as you had to filter in charge times which were all over the place, some working some not, some fast charge or so say they were but would not on the BUZZ, finding a charge point that was vacant sometimes posed a problem, the drive itself was nicer as there was lack of engine noise and it seemed easier to propel it but other than that there is going to be big changes in the way we travel if EV is the only way forward, or the fast charge infrastructure needs looking at in a big way and quickly, even motorway service station lack enough fast charge points he was saying so you end up waiting there for ages or hanging around waiting for an EV to come off fast charge either way it is not relaxing. It was quit an eye opener, you see a lot on TV but how much made to look like that, this was a genuine guy in a BUZZ trying to holiday with his family.

Personally for me I got a cheap Nissan Leaf 40 Kwh just as a commuter car for daily city use. Charge it up at home. No coolant hassles.

I will maintain my diesel for all long trips since it still doesnt make sense to spend all that money for an expensive long range EV that still wont do more than 250 miles on the highway.

But for daily city use EVs make all the sense.

[ChrisRobin]

@ Mcglarren
Have you seen an EV go up, once the battery hits a certain temp you can not stop it, it is going to go on fire nor can you put it out unless you dunk the whole vehicle in a tank/skip of water and leave it.
We have to take them outside, put a 5 mtr cordon around them with nothing above and make sure the surface it is parked on is not flammable and inform the fire brigade, who we believe have some kind of blanket they throw over it in case of fire but the core temp stays high for over a week I think it is to try and choke of of air.
Interestingly nobody was written down in process form how we get this EV outside, do we drive it, will it let us start it, can't push it, nobody actually wants to say how we would do it, and we are now a battery centre as well and we still don't know.
However we have had to buy 2 wooden poles, 2 mtrs long painted red with a plastic hook on end so we can move a techs body away from the power source should he get shocked, £500 each, expensive wood must be because it is red.

[ChrisRobin]

@aneesh84
250miles that's on a good charge and a decent battery(s) range drops when lights, heaters etc go on, also depends on how loaded it is with people and luggage and also terrain and head winds.
They are a good idea, but an awful lot of work needs t obe done in the next 7 years to make them viable, then you have to address mindset of drivers/owners which will have to change as well.

Manufactures are also worried about their dealerships, Aftersales alone with sales keeps dealers above water, bread and butter items like cambelt change, gearbox oil changes, servicing pollen, oil, air, fuel or sparks and of course engine oil, we are lucky we have all 5 brands here and we do around 50 services a day and 3/4 belts plus quite a few DSG and haldex oil changes per day, come 2030 then what?

That's a big question, will the used car market blast off for 12 months and used cars become really expensive or will they just die a death, we don't know, but as a dealership we do know the aftersales side WILL die within 7 years which is roughly the age of the oldest car we see, all the C/clet changes, gone! all the gearbox oil changes, gone, service parts all gone the only thing we will do after 2 years in a pollen filter and brake fluid, so once we sell a new or used EV we will not see it again for 2 years unless it breaks.
Manufactures are that worried about this and anticipate dealership will fold are now looking at "hubs" we are being looked at by our Manufacturer to role out our 5 brand model across UK and Europe, which means if you want/need to have work done chances are it will no longer be local to you, there so also talk of the smaller manufactures going into a type of car supermarket, were there will be 4 or 5 different car makers selling their vehicles but one workshop for them all.

The other change will be car parts outlets and manufactures, there will be a reduced call for oil, air and fuel filters, glow plugs and sparks, engine oil, gearbox oil and as time goes on les and less call for them, a lot of jobs lost I feel is on the way towards the motor industry as well as massive changes to it and how it operates, in 7 years time I will be 67 and retiring out of it thankfully.

[CitroJim]

The reason LPG gas is so dangerous in tunnels and underground car parks is because it's denser than the normal atmosphere and sinks to the lowest levels and accumulates... The results of it being ignited can be devastating. Petrol vapour is less dense and rises/evaporates readily so is not so dangerous....

Touring caravans and motorhomes that carry LPG has floor vents to allow LPG to escape...

Yes, big traction battery fires are terrifying and a huge worry. I've seen some very 'impressive' fireworks from relatively small rechargable D Cells calling it a day so multiply that a few hundred times and things can get very serious. I believe EV car fires are almost impossible to extinguish and the fire brigade just leave them to burn out in their own time...

I really don't think this aspect and cell recycling has been fully thought through...

[ChrisRobin]

I remember my Science teacher (yes I can remember that far back, just) telling us all you can put a match out in petrol with out an explosion...... long pause whilst we all gasped and then added if only you could get past the vapour...... and went on to explain.
I always thought a few years later that was a rather dangerous thing to say to a load of 13 year olds full of testosterone.

[GiveMeABreak]

I'm in the camp of hanging on to my ICE vehicle for as long as possible until I am forced into changing it and by that time I hope they are a lot more reliable, safer, have decent range and of course more affordable, seeing current prices of EVs plummet month after month.

In 7 years it's not going to happen in reality. I have one or 2 vehicle chargers in the nearest town 20 miles away - outside a Harvester type place - it has 2 chargers, one's usually not working and the other is occasionally used from watching sitting in the car having a takeaway every so often. I think there's one in Tesco too and that's all the ones I've seen.

I rural areas here there are none, and you're going to have to fork out for a home charger and all the cost that entails. It's totally ill-considered and thought out and I see that second hand ICE vehicles are holding their value well, with some people I know who have been paid more for their vehicle by the dealer than they bought it from them for!

[myglaren]

I hope these abominations never see the light of day.
Just an exercise in blingy bells and whistles that no-one needs.

[ChrisRobin]

Supermarket one are usually trickle charges with 2 HOUR max charge time, so our customers keep telling me.
We had a taxi driver with 2 Skoda Octavia's, in most times for different things then no sign of him for around 3 months, then he was back buying 2 more diesel Octavia's but no part ex? odd, we got talking to him again and it seems, he swapped the original Octavia's for 2 MG EV,s all sounded good max 300mls to a charge, so he could rotates them on charge for his drivers one off one on the 2 hrs before the night shift the MG would be fully charged for that shift so he had worked it all out to keep them both running, local Council were buzzing with him.......
However, the 300Mls were not entirely true and even less as the nights and weather drew in he was then finding the 2hr charge in-between shifts wasn't enough as the MG had depleted to much power during the shift, so he ended up having to drive it 20mils to a faster charger to get it to 80% as winter rolled in he was having to take them in the middle of the night the 20mls to try and get them to as close to 100% as possible the more the winter rolled in the rain came and the more these MGs needed charging, he tried the supermarkets and got nothing hardly in charge.
He then approached the Council for fast charging points at his home, they wanted £5k for a survey of his property but the installation would only be considered after a grid survey in which the power Company takes a look at the power grid he is on and works out if it can take a fast charge point, to this he must pay the power company £40k, and even then the power company might well say no as the local infrastructure has not been upgraded for decades, if they did say yes, so still £40k down the Council might then after they had their £5k turn him down anyway, he took the MG's back to the dealer who actually bought them back of him and he hardly lost anything and now he is back here with us with diesel Octavia's, like he said it seemed a good thing to do, it seemed an ECO friendly thing to do, but the reality was just heartache and hassle and tons more money to make it work... maybe.
The points you made above Marc were very similar to the lad in the BUZZ here at work, he was finding some chargers nor working at all, other working but not taking a card payment, The ID BUZZ was guiding him to fast chargers that were then not compatible with the BUZZ system, so standard charging it instead, I didn't even know that was a thing, he said at one point they all sat in a scruffy car park in a run down area for 2 hours waiting to get enough charge to safely move to another charger as you start loosing confidence and instead of enjoying your holiday you become obsessed with battery condition and charge points.
Like he said we have only 7 years to sort this out now, Manufactures must be flapping a lot as well as they must have 1000's of IC cars sitting in storage and 7 years to get rid, couple that with the Government wanting us to go carbon natural and get shot of IC cars there is an awful lot of pressure brewing within the motor industry, you will see MOT's getting harder to pass, you will see fuel going up and up, Insurance companies will increase prices due to expensive repairs on IC cars mine has just shot up £80 and the girl pretty much said in as many words on the phone if I have an EV there are some really good deals to be had, what does that mean? Road tax will increase over the next 7 years all to force us out of our IC cars, you only have to look at the 20mph limits coming into force, who will be effected the worst from that, your IC engine or your EV travelling at a merger 20mph, road safety.. TOSH, it is to get our vehicles choking up and therefore having costly DPF cleans and new parts, whilst your EV tootles along with out a problem and then you end up with an emissions fail.
DPF for a 7 year old Amarok Exchange £2208.08 plus gaskets plus Labour so you are looking on the region for your 7 year old car £3k ish.
DPF 7 year old Golf Exchange £15348.42 plus a lot of gaskets and time to remove/replace, so I bet you would not be far away from £3k on that either.
A lot of money for a 7 year old car.

[Skull]

ChrisRobin very insightful few posts above, I get the feeling you're not a fan of EV at the moment, which is worrying for someone 'in the trade' - I toy with the idea of a second hand EV on a regular basis, but the annual mileage I do (7,000) doesn't warrant that really, it would probable be as a second car for local journeys, I would still need a mile muncher (my Xantia HDi does a fine 750 mile 'charge' range job) OR hire a car for those longer journeys.

[ChrisRobin]

@Skull
Well a fan yes and no, I drove a Q8 Etron for the weekend, borrowed from work, really nice and mega quick for it size and weight especially in sport mode.
Looking around it made me wonder in years to come how it will fair, tons and tons of tech on it, so it will have to be main dealer to sort it no "Fred in a shed" for it apart from the most simple things does not stand a chance. I think I see the more practical side of the repairs than some others and we all in the workshop wonder in years to come who these EV's will fair with the "back street garage" you can't even fill them will coolant easily you need a £10k automated machine to make sure you get no airlocks we now have 2x £25K scissor lifts on wheels eclectically operated to lift out the battery packs due to there weight, a ton of special equipment for lifting and lowering electric motors, Techs that have spent the past 12 months on specialist courses for EV's, £1000's of pounds on more tools for them.
We have has 2 massive 9 hour updates on both ID3/4 the last one need a 12 volts battery change already.
We are now in the process of checking all Brand EVs on battery cell issues and changing the offending cell already, some of these cars are not even 6 months old.
We have changed at lest 5 electric motors on Audi
2 electric gear boxes on Audi
2 electric gear boxes on Skoda
Countless Charge ports on all brands along the the giant orange cables behind the port as they either stop charging due to putting in and pulling out of charge plug, or the flap sticks so you can't charge it as it wont open, we then have to break it open.
We have 21 used battery cells in our workshop stacked, we can not get rid of, recyclers don't want the cells only a full battery, manufacture tells us not to send the back under no circumstance, 7 new cells in goods in waiting to be fitted usually an all day affair.
These EV's are not easy to repair and deadly if you get it wrong, when working on them they have signs all over them, taped off all around them, and tech had special clothing to wear when working on the HV circuits as well as special foot wear, for batteries he also has to wear a face shield and make it clear to a staff member usually me were the "pole" is being laid ready to drag him away should it all go wrong as I am in the workshop facing the battery bay.
So no not overly keen, yet, but to be fair in 7 years time I will be 67 and retiring so no overly worried either.

I suppose what funny about it, is I wonder how many conversations like this were had when horseless carriages took over from Horse AND Carriage, well they wont catch on will they noisy smelly things, then think about the carpenters who repaired the carriages, wheel wrights making wheels, blacksmiths, bridlers for the harnesses, some would of moved over into the horseless industry other would try to find another trade or closed down, I think this is the biggest change we will ever see in the motor industry in our life time, it does make you nervous toward you future, and you as a consumer will also find it massively different I think, not just in how you buy a new or used car but how you get it repaired as well, and I do think id you manage to keep your IC on the road parts will not be cheap anymore, for example if my 308cc is still running in 2040 and I am not dead, who will be making air, oil and fuel filters for it, not many as there in no money in them any more so the price will climb for these items as will exhausts and cam belts etc, I think some of older motor trade employees are feeling a bit like the above lists (blacksmiths etc)
We also hear stories of charge points not working from customers, either not at all or wont take a payment card, especially when it is wet and dark how they are charging them all the time for trips, and mostly we wonder about all the millions of people who live in terraced houses, how do they charge their cars, lamp posts was one option but going on the way people behave these days you can see that not working all the mobility people and part time workers with be hooked up those of us who get home later will have no chance of a charge unless we are up and down at the window all night watching and waiting for a free lamp post, seems to us we are sprinting for 2030 but nobody seems to be in that much of a rush to get charge points in for us all, even motorway service stations don't have enough fast chargers.

[NewcastleFalcon]

There is a thread on the FCF which I used to tend to from time to time and your very revealing first hand experience would sit well on that thread.

Car news global and domestic. Basically all the car news these days is mostly ev centred. This links to a post of mine on that thread where speculation reported was that a higher service rate for ev’s was necessary because perversely there was less to do.

Car News Global and Domestic
viewtopic.php?p=725395#p725395

This thread Electric Cars what’s Available, kicked off in the main to cover new models of ev up and coming, with info and reviews, and started off in the days when that was a Leaf a Zoe or a Tesla for the even more well heeled.

My own electric experience has been good, 40,000 Miles and nearly 4 years in a second hand 2015 classic shape Leaf, and the whole shebang documented from day minus 2 to the present day and the parking brake saga, on the thread bargain basement electric usually somewhere in the active topics list :-D


While the conversation is going, participation’s is much more important than selecting the most appropriate thread :)

Neil

[Gibbo2286]

You seem to be all fixated on range and price, that's not what the average motorist in the UK does, the private car buyer buys used cars, two three four owners, and drives it locally for fifty weeks of the year, an EV makes perfect sense for that.
So you want to do a trip to the other end of the country for your holidays or a special occasion rent a car for a weekend or a couple of weeks if you're in too much of a hurry to take a charge pee and eat on the way
As for buying a home charger it's not that much of an outlay and you can pay for it with the savings from the petrol/diesel you're not going to use.

Two years yesterday since I put the Zoe on the road, taxed again online, £zero, total maintenance costs two mots two cabin filters and a few top ups of the windscreen washer, never had range anxiety and travelled everywhere I would have done with the old diesel C5.

[ChrisRobin]

Gibbo
If you take a look under my profile image you will both my listed cars are diesels so price and range don't come into it for me.
People who come to our dealership to buy both new and used EV's one of the questions asked within the 1st 3 questions is about batteries.
The 3/4 owners for a used car works for IC not sure people will jump into EV's as easily at present, they are not sure on the used ID,s with one owner let alone 3/4.
Not sure why you would waste money hiring a car for a trip to the other side of the Country, bit like haveing a dog and barking yourself, plus the biggie for hire cars is trend, when diesel was on trend most of the hire cars you picked up would of been diesel, now they have feel out of favour its petrol's you get, for the past 3 years now I have had a petrol hire car, past two years when I asked for diesel they didn't have many, this year we don't have them now I was told, it won't be long before the rentals offer EV's instead. perfect for the manufactures as well as
A) you get rid of stock,
B) you get people to drive them and like them.
your house point would be a standard charge outside outlet at a guess, the fast charge outlets apparently are very expensive, again information pasted on to us from customers who own EV's, Octopus will fit an outside charging point for free when you fit a smart meter, and they will be ready for that day when the "Fuel Tax" balance is tipped by EV's and home charge rates will end up on their own tariff for your EV's
The ID BUZZ trip I thought was poignant as it was the same trip done most years from a sales lad who goes and sees family and friends last year diesel Tiguan, this year ID.BUZZ same trip to different types of vehicle and the issues he came across and I am sorry to ay but his Pee charge as you called it on average lasted an almost hour each time as the fast charges where not available, not enough of them.
The parts pries are and eye opener as most people who say to us Oh I am not going battery sticking with my old petrol, parts are cheap, that hadn't realised chances are they wont be, as more and more IC's go off the road the call for these parts get less and less, and prices will inevitably go up, they have to as they become harder to find.
Biggest change to the motor industry for absolute decades.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Spotting a 73 plate Volvo, I had a quick delve into Volvo's offerings on the EV front and came across the new EX90.

https://www.volvocars.com/uk/cars/ex90- ... SUV_Broad

Made in Sweden Chendu China by Geely

https://www.volvocars.com/uk/cars/ex90-electric/

Neil