Dump Your Deezel

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by RichardW »

Mandrake wrote:That 120kWh at 13.7p/kWh would cost me £16 on my monthly electricity bill - at the moment I pay around £90 in petrol for the same distance. (OK I do drive a petrol V6... :lol: ) If I had dual rate electricity and charged the car on the night rate I could potentially halve that to £8 a month for 300 miles.
Works out about 18 mpg... Ouch!!

If we level the playing field, ie take out the Gov influence, then raw cost of electricity is £15.20. Petrol tax is currently 57.95p / l. Take this and VAT out and you get a raw cost of £31.54. Doesn't quite level the field, but getting closer! In my car, 300 miles only costs £36. Strip the Gov influence out of this, and you get a raw cost of £12.61. Not that a 110 BHP skip is really equivalent to a Sports car! When / if EV takes off mainstream, then expect HMG to impose costs on it somehow - secondary meters perhaps?

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Stickyfinger »

The theft of Hydrocarbon fuel is relatively easy to control/prevent.....not so with electricity.

Coming to a town near you :)
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bobins
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by bobins »

Taxing or controlling electricity usage should be relatively easy to undertake. The new compulsory 'smart' meters being rolled out have to capability of being turned off remotely, so it wouldn't take too much to be able to implement peak demand limiting or restrictions on daily kw/h consumption...... unless you pay extra for the privilege of not being restricted, of course :roll: We could even get into 'electricity credits trading' - a bit like carbon credits trading, only for the domestic market :)
Last edited by bobins on 10 Feb 2017, 11:40, edited 1 time in total.

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

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And no doubt new generations of smart meters could tell when a car is being charged via them fro taxation purposes... It only needs a bit of telemetry and is relatively simple as PLC (Power Line Communications) is well developed already...

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

There's a mention of population density/growth, I wonder if that's necessarily the case.

In the post war period there was a 'baby boom' that baby boom led to a shortage of primary school places then a shortage of secondary school places then a shortage of jobs for school levers etc. etc. now a shortage of care services for the elderly.

So those baby boomers have now reached the last years of their lives and despite the better life expectancy there must be due a deaths boom :shock:

Maybe most of care and NHS overload problems will be relieved naturally in the next few years as the boomers pop off their clogs.

Back to cars.........I remember when this was going to be the future

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 516271.stm

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

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LOL.....if laughter makes you fitter, I think you just caused your theory to fail :)

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
Mandrake wrote:That 120kWh at 13.7p/kWh would cost me £16 on my monthly electricity bill - at the moment I pay around £90 in petrol for the same distance. (OK I do drive a petrol V6... :lol: ) If I had dual rate electricity and charged the car on the night rate I could potentially halve that to £8 a month for 300 miles.
Works out about 18 mpg... Ouch!!
I must have got my numbers a bit wrong, according to fuelly, my average MPG over the last year is 21.3 - and the majority of that driving is the daily commute which is a lot of slow stop start driving. (Although it tells me my last fill up was only 19.6MPG :( )
If we level the playing field, ie take out the Gov influence, then raw cost of electricity is £15.20. Petrol tax is currently 57.95p / l. Take this and VAT out and you get a raw cost of £31.54. Doesn't quite level the field, but getting closer! In my car, 300 miles only costs £36. Strip the Gov influence out of this, and you get a raw cost of £12.61. Not that a 110 BHP skip is really equivalent to a Sports car! When / if EV takes off mainstream, then expect HMG to impose costs on it somehow - secondary meters perhaps?
Yes good point about road tax (and 20% VAT) being included in petrol/diesel prices but not in electricity! That is not a completely fair comparison. Eventually something will have to be done about that (from the governments point of view) but for those early adopters of EV's they can take advantage of the fact that they're basically dodging the fuel component of road tax at the moment and take that as an added bonus but not something to rely on long term.

As for how to collect road usage tax on EV's, adding it to the cost of electricity or using "specially metered" electricity is not the solution, as you need to be able to charge your car anywhere, including on a standard 13A household socket, and if you bundled the charge with electricity it means those who charged their cars from the grid would be paying road user tax and those who charged their cars from their own solar panels would be dodging any road user charges! (As they currently are even when charging from the grid, while this loophole exists)

Some other countries already have a solution for this - unbundle the road user tax from the pump price and bill vehicles (regardless of method of fuelling, petrol, diesel, electricity) road user tax separately from filling up/charging, based on miles travelled and the class of vehicle. (Car, light truck, Lorry etc)

In New Zealand road user tax is bundled in petrol as it is here in the UK however it has never been bundled in the cost of Diesel in NZ. Diesel costs less than half that of petrol due to the road tax being paid separately on a yearly basis, based on the number of km/year you did and the category of vehicle.

It is done this way I believe because until the early 90's diesel cars in NZ were almost non-existent, Diesel was used for stationary engines and farm vehicles like tractors etc (neither of which should pay road tax as they don't use the roads) and commercial vehicles - which paid their road tax separately based on mileage and class of vehicle - which is a much fairer scheme because you are paying for the amount of damage you do the road, and the amount of congestion you cause. Obviously a big lorry travelling 1000 miles causes more road wear and tear and more road congestion (requiring upgraded motorways) than a car travelling the same distance, so it makes sense to have road tax bands for different classes of vehicles, based on their impact on the road system.

When road tax is bundled into the pump price those with lower MPG cars are at an unfair disadvantage where they not only pay for their increased fuel usage, they pay more than their fair share of road tax - my Xantia V6 pays a lot more road tax than a 2.0HDi Xantia per mile even though the effects on road wear and congestion are identical.

With a separate per mile road tax applied fairly between petrol/diesel/electric cars you then have a more level playing field, so I think what will happen is that EV's will be charged a mileage based road tax as Diesels in New Zealand currently are, and eventually road tax will be un-bundled from petrol and diesel pump prices and paid separately based on vehicle class and mileage. It's the only fair way to do it really, although the transition could be messy! At least it would get rid of the hassles of Red Diesel though...

I don't necessarily see a problem with this separate road user charge - I accept that money has to go towards maintaining the road network, and all road users should pay their fair share towards it...and it's hard to cheat the system when mileage figures are recorded at your yearly MOT. In fact I think in NZ (where cars need a warrant of fitness every year for new cars and every 6 months for cars older than 3 years) it is the mileage taken at the testing station and recorded on the national computer system that is used to allow the government to bill your road usage charges - they know exactly what your yearly mileage is...

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Sloppysod
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Sloppysod »

Its all what if's
If as expected by 2050 80% of private road vehicles on the Europeans roads will be electric, then there will need to be more investment in electric generation, as the demand will be greater. So think about it, how or who will pay for it - Us 'Joe Public' of course. There is no way industry will invest without getting a profit in return. I expect that, eventually, they will standardise the charging point, and you will have to pay every time you connect you car, bit like current prepay meters, and you will pay a high price per KW. And then the governments need their bit too, they are starting to loose revenue on road tax at good rate, about 3000 of the new cars registered each month are now EV's, so in total about 1.3% of the vehicles on the UK road today are 'Plug-in' and paying a lower road tax or not paying it at all. I would not be surprised if within a couple of years road tax will start to go up, no matter how it is collected, annually, or by mileage vs vehicle type, and it will hit the guzzlers first then the EV's, £0, £20, £30 per year will vanish.

Those who can buy a new car regularly will benefit, when buying an EV and those of us who can not afford to will pay the price for keeping an old motor going in higher fuel and road tax prices so the government(s) still get an income.

As for Fuel, I seem to remember that Diesel and Paraffin were near the bottom, Aviation fuel in the middle and Petrol at the top of the distillation tower, so if people are being driven (sorry for the pun) away from Diesels, does that mean it will become cheaper as the oil companies need to get rid of it?! :-D
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Electric Vehicles are Cheap to run now, but eventually they will not.

But, hopefully I will retire in about 6-8 years, and by then my X7 will start getting a bit tired so I am 90% sure a new car will appear, and it will be a 0 emissions car, but I really hope that Hydrogen fuel cells would be mainstream by then.

Why do I think we are having a few battles going on where the better idea loses, VHS vs Betamax, Nuclear vs Wind/Solar, lets just hope that it is not the same with Battery vs Hydrogen as there is room for both.

Info from here
http://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/ele ... l-help-the
http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/statistics/
http://www.s-cool.co.uk/gcse/chemistry/ ... s-from-oil

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Stu, a good post :) Petrol was once a waste product that refineries had trouble getting rid of.. They used to just flame it off. There's a report of Shell burning off petrol in oil fields in Brunei until Ricardo engineers discovered it was particularly high-octane stuff and ideal for aviation whilst they were researching the causes of detonation in high-performance engines in the 1920s. This research led to the concept of rating the anti-knock properties of petrol and thus making petrol consistent between batches...

I've often pondered that the current VED (Vehicle Excise Duty aka car tax) system is not sustainable with so many vehicles now either free of VED or very low. The Government must be loosing hand-over fist as clever car makers seem to be able, by fair means or foul, to get really quite large and powerful vehicles into very low VED bands... We relatively few who run older cars surely cannot be making up the shortfall..

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by white exec »

One more dimension to this is that the oil companies could well make a further move into power generation, which would allow them to continue to sell their various products, but (hopefully) burn them much cleaner than could be achieved in individual ICE's. It would also save the considerable costs and traffic of distribution*, as the 'hydrocarbon'/multi-fuel power stations could be fed directly off the national fuel grid. Environmentally not that attractive an idea, from many standpoints, but I can see that happening - and governments allowing it - if the demand for petrol and diesel were suddenly to reduce.

However, a good bit of ICE and oil-burning will remain for a while yet - in parallel to private small transport going all-electric: aviation, heating, some heavy road transport - although none of these are beyond the reach of cleaner fuels.

* The oil companies have been telling us for years that there is no profit for them in petrol and diesel retailing, so perhaps they might now like to prove it!

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CitroJim
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by CitroJim »

Chris, that's a good idea you propose for the oil companies to generate power using their products...
white exec wrote: The oil companies have been telling us for years that there is no profit for them in petrol and diesel retailing
If you believe that you'll be believing there's fairies living at the bottom of your garden next...

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

CitroJim wrote:If you believe that you'll be believing there's fairies living at the bottom of your garden next...
You mean there aren't?!? Then who has been eating all the treats and repairing my shoes down there?

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Dump Your Deezel

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That would be the Eastern European immigrants you rented the shed to .....

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Erm, my landlord has not taken on any more tenants, so far as I know.

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Re: Dump Your Deezel

Post by RichardW »

RichardW wrote:Works out about 18 mpg... Ouch!!
Sorry, did you a dis-service there - I worked out on std UL whereas you run it on Super. So you might be the right side of 20mpg :rofl2: