New 406 1.9TD owner - questions and concerns

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 21 Oct 2008, 16:15

Hello there!

I am new to this forum and French cars in general, having recently splashed out the princely sum of £450 for a '98 406 1.9td with 136k on the clock. My last few cars have been old Merc diesels, but after the last beast (w124 estate, what a motor!) bit the dust at MOT time I decided to just get something cheap and diesel, and this 406 came up. I know the XUD9 is very well thought of, almost as good as an old Merc lump... 8)

Anyway, a few things things are worrying me, a few things I'm just curious about. In no particular order:

1) There are three plugs just dangling around under the bonnet, I can't see anything obvious that they connect to.

This one has 3 wires going to it, and is around the Injection Pump. Something to do with an immobiliser?

This 'un has two wires, and also comes from the loom near the IP (sorry for the extreme close up!)

Then there's this 3 wire one...

2) The engine electronics warning light is always on, is this linked to 1)?

3) When you take your foot off of the throttle, the rev counter falls to zero, coming back when you press the pedal again. Linked to 1) and 2)?

4) The Bowden cable coming from this vacuum device isn't connected to anything, again, I couldn't see anything glaringly obvious as to where it should go. Is this a vacuum operated actuator, or a cable operated vacuum valve? (ie does the vacuum pull the cable, or does pulling the cable switch/dump vacuum?)

5) When you first start driving, the brake pedal is extremely stiff and you really, really have to stand on the pedal to get the car to stop. I'm guessing this is because there's no servo assistance. After a short while the brakes are normal. Could this be a dodgy vacuum pump? Dodgy servo? Or something to do with 4)?

6) This has only happened once, but was quite unnerving; whilst slowly going around a big roundabout at rush hour, my OSF wheel locked up! I stopped the car and got out to check the wheel hadn't fallen of (it hadn't), then ever so slowly limped off to get out the way. Within 20 yards or so it seemed fine and it hasn't happened again. It is very worrying though, I'm scared it will happen at 70 on the motorway! Could this be an ABS problem, or something to do with 5)?

7) Smoking! The car produces a lot of blueish/grey smoke, but only after 5-10 miles of 50mph+ driving. Then sometimes it will just about vanish, then come back again. It doesn't smoke at all from cold, and engine load doesn't have a huge affect on it. The oil level is spot on. I have thought about disconnecting the crankcase breather from the intake line and taking it for a spin and watching for smoke, is this a good idea?

8) There is an oil leak around injector 3 (counting from the O/S). Could this oil also be getting in to the combustion chamber and causing the smoke? The engine doesn't run on. What kind of seal is under the injector? Is it easy enough to change?

9) There's a clunk from the OSF when you go over bumps, I'm guessing it's a droplink; are they easy to change?

10) Has anyone actually read this far?

Blimey!

Sorry for such a long first post, but I'll be extremely grateful for any advice anyone can offer!

Cheers!

Hibbo

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 21 Oct 2008, 16:51

8. chances are it's actually leaking from the oil breather pipe to the cam cover, check it for splits and it's jubilee clip for tightness.
They get old and perish, new ones are cheap and much more flexible.
4. connects to your fast idle at the back of the injection pump. Electrovalve operates the vacuum which pulls/releases the cable.
7. Probably your EGR coming in when it isn't needed. MikeT has posted in the citroen section or his blog on how to disable this useless device (I love the description of it being like farting up your own nose).
Best to check the airfilter too though, and your fuel filter.

Confirm you've got a Bosch injection pump and start running on vegetable oil

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 21 Oct 2008, 16:54

Welcome Hibbo

Firstly, the lead danging in the top photo is the immobiliser connector to the immobiliser unit on the injection pump. I se a brown wire dangling too. From the picture, I'd say initially the pump has been (badly) de-armoured to defeat the immobiliser block that normally sits on top of the stop solenoid. This is given away by the fact that the blue plug is dangling without a mount and wiring from a much earlier pump has been used for the stop solenoid as shown by the dangling brown wire with a black boot on it. This is properly for the cold start advance electrovalve on the earlier pump.

Your keypad does not work does it?

I reckon the second is the connector for the Needle Lift Sensor on No.3 injector (which you say is leaking). Do you see a thin black wire emerging from this (or any other) injector and dangling? Methinks the injector has been replaced with a non-sensor type. It's just sealed with a copper washer and a shaped fire washer.

The third disconnected connector may be innoculous. Early ones had a water in diesel sensor on the lower part of the fuel filter housing and this was soon deleted. Some cars during the change-over period had the wiring but not the sensor.

The loose bowden cable is your pump fast-idle and is dangling because the pump has been de-armoured and it's mount has been lost.

Tell me, is the pump secured to the back of it's cradle by a nut and bolt. I'll wager this is missing too as the anchor point for the fast idle cable and the rear pump mount is on the same bracket. If it is missing, the pump will soon vibrate itself off the engine or fracture the rigid injector pipes with serious results.

Check, for goodness sake that the three front mounting nuts are there and tight! Please, if the rear mount is missing, get it sorted soonest. Due to the risk of injector pipe fracture, this is something I'd consider very dangerous.

Smoke, bad running and a funny tacho response all points to the lack of a Needle Lift Sensor and because of this, the pump cannot time itself correctly. This will put the Engine Management Light on constantly amd make the engine run poorly.

Fact is, and I'm really sorry to say this, but it appears an "expert" has been at your pump and injectors and not done it right at all. In fact, looking again at the picture, I'm not even sure it's truely the right pump that's fitted

Brakes too may well be connected. The fast idle system and EGR valve are vacuum operated and these are operated from the same pump that supplies the brakle servo. If the fast idle and EGR have been bodged and there is vacuum leaking (technically, vacuum cannot leak but you know what I mean!), the servo will be starved of vacuum and hence the hard brake. The brake locking on though, I'd say was more a binding caliper.

To prove the vacuum problem, run a pipe directly from the vacuum pump to the servo. Test the servo like this: Stop the engine and pump the brake pedal until it goes really hard. Hold your foot on the brake, hard and start up. The pedal should, if the servo and vacuum supply is in order, slowly sink about three quarters of an inch as vacuum builds.

Your problems are all sortable.

Drop links are dead easy to swap although you may need to angle grind their nuts off. The noise you hear is exactly what they make when failing.

Yes, I have read this far

Good post!

Now, to help you further, can you take a load more photos of the injection pump from as many angles as possible with good definition. Also, photos of the injectors and the vacuum pump would be valuable.

I reckon you have a mongrel pump and a bodge-up to sort out.

406s are great cars. Worth sorting. My lad has one with the 2.1TD engine.

Hope that helps. keep coming back until resolved!

And once again, welcome Hibbo

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 21 Oct 2008, 17:06

Xac wrote: Confirm you've got a Bosch injection pump and start running on vegetable oil

It's a Bosch Xac, but not as we know it

Hibbo: do you see another loose cable right under the pump body, right below the cast iron rotor head where the four injectior pipes leave?

As I say, with more photos I can do a positive ID on the pump.

Good point on the leak around No.3 Injector

Nothing wrong with EGR you know

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 21 Oct 2008, 17:16

The leaking one is counting from the O/S which would be from the belt end of the engine wouldn't it jim?
That's why I thought it was the one under the breather pipe.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 21 Oct 2008, 17:20

Xac wrote:The leaking one is counting from the O/S which would be from the belt end of the engine wouldn't it jim?
That's why I thought it was the one under the breather pipe.

Yes, well spotted Xac. Looking again you can see it in the picture. Just the normal oily injector that every 1.9TD on this planet has

The Needle Lift Sensor Injector is No.2 when counting from the cam end although it is actually No.3 as PSA number the cylinders opposite to everybody else

red_dwarfers · Unread post by **red_dwarfers** » 21 Oct 2008, 19:51

Welcome to French Car ownership Hibbo and the friendliest, most helpful forum on the web!
Don't worry, we all love a good long post to read

its also very helpful when diagnosing a problem

Not sure whether it is different for the 406s but on the first photo, the fuel filter to radiator coolant hose and one of the air ducts look a bit un natural, the air duct even looks as if its not fitted properly as the little lump that should snug home, hasn't!
Just went up to look at my Xant and the coolant hose is in front of the duct and the air duct fitting lump is snug home.
Probably not related to anything, but it looks as if its putting unnessisacy tension on the hoses.

I would replace the cam breather hose, the ends of mine where nearly plastic when taking them off

I would also say that the plug near the fuel filter housing has never been used, if it was supposed to plug in behind the housing for the ECU fast idle, the plug would be either blue or green (can't remember which colour!)

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 21 Oct 2008, 23:42

Thanks for all the replies, and the welcome!

The IP is definately a Bosch - coming from Merc Diesels I know all about veg oil! Unfortunately the price of veg is higher than Diesel at the mo, and living in a flat UCO isn't really an option

I used to post on the Goat Industries forum as ELT-H, but ended up spending far too much time on there!

I will take some more photos of the IP, it does look like a proper mongrel, and will deffo check the mounting of it. I was a bit confused as to the engine electronics light and a throttle cable direct to the IP...

I will check everything else that's been mentioned, and look to disabling the EGR.

Thanks again!

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 22 Oct 2008, 00:16

Just to add, the car does give that impression that it's been "experted", that and the fact that the V5 still hasn't arrived...

Just remembered that the snout lighter and rear demister don't work, do they share a fuse? Does anyone have a link to a list?

Cheers again,

PS. I like the sound of "you may need to angle grind their nuts off."

Unread post by **RichardW** » 22 Oct 2008, 12:17

I suspect this car had a replacement engine, and they've installed an older non-ecu, non immobilised one. Is there a bowden cable connecting the back of the IP to the thermostat housing?

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 22 Oct 2008, 14:22

Bugger bugger bugger!

I'm 40 miles away from home and my OSR brake is binding like a good 'un. Need to do another 40 miles to drop stuff off, so 120 miles will a red hot hub.

Oh dear.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 22 Oct 2008, 17:21

Hibbo wrote: I'm 40 miles away from home and my OSR brake is binding like a good 'un.

406 rear discs

Useless handbrake and a propensity to bind. Strip and clean up and all will be fine. Check the handbrake cables are OK. They can seize and cause binding as well.

Hope you made it home OK...

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 22 Oct 2008, 17:40

Bloody Merde car!

I'm home now, didn't make it to my final destination though... (going to have to borrow the bird's motor and do the whole journey again tonight

)

From what I could see it has drums on the back, unless there's a weird disk cover...? I attempted to make the trip further oop north, checking the brake every few miles - it didn't seem too bad. There is a grinding noise when you apply the brakes that you hear as you are coming to a stop. I'll get it stripped down ASAP.

I was going along some windy country roads, it was smoking a bit, but not too bad. I then hit quite a steep incline (18% according to the sign) and the power started dropping off and the smoke got worse and worse. The temperature started rising and I bottled it; I eventually found somewhere to pull over and switched it off. I opened the expansion chamber and there was a wee hiss, but nothing massive. I started it up and watched the expansion chamber, a few bubbles but it wasn't blasting out. It did froth up a bit when the revs drop back to idle.

Ironically, it seemed a lot better on the way home, it then started smoking a bit again, the temperature also seems to rise with the smoke.

Is this loss of power/smoke/temp rise symptomatic of the engine breathing its own farts (EGR) or something worse?

Anyway, the bird's just got home so I'm comandeering her car...........

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 22 Oct 2008, 17:55

Drums are good

The problem will be general dirt and seized auto adjusters along with (possibly) duff handbrake cables.

It may be the rears have been looked at recently and the auto adjusters are too enthusiastic and are binding. Also the placement of the shoe spring are critical and there are myriad (wrong) ways of putting them on.

Hibbo wrote:Is this loss of power/smoke/temp rise symptomatic of the engine breathing its own farts (EGR) or something worse?

No, nothing that can be laid at the door of the EGR system. EGR, although universally hated, cannot cause these symptoms, unless perhaps the valve was held wide-open constantly. It is however, all the symptoms of the injection timing being too retarded for the prevailing operating conditions. A retared diesel gives exactly the same symptoms as a retarded petrol engine.

We're back to that pump again!

Hibbo · Unread post by **Hibbo** » 22 Oct 2008, 22:43

Pump indeed! But this whole smoke/crap engine thing is confusing me as it seems to happen as and when it feels like it... If the timing was out surely it would be like this all the time?

Here are some more photos then, Pump fans!

I am starting to piece things together in my mind, it is clearly a Mechanical VE type pump, but I would guess that a car of this youth would have had an EPVE. Whether it's the pump or the whole engine that's been changed....hmm? Am I right in saying that the rev counter is driven from the needle lift sensor, and this Injection Pump doesn't deliver fuel under overrun conditions? That would explain the rev counter dropping to zero...

But at the moment I couldn't care less about that, I'm rapidly losing any faith I had in this car

It's payday tomorrow and auction day on Sunday!

PS. Does anyone have a link to the guide to disabling the EGR? I've searched through MikeT's posts but can't find owt.