Citrojim's Saxo and Cycling Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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Sid_the_Squid
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Unread post by Sid_the_Squid »

Thanks for your help yesterday Jim, your excellent company, plus its nice to be able to change the box oil without a hideous configuration of jacks and spirit levels. As for the engine thing, I'm going to try cleaning or ordering a new MAP sensor, hopefully this will be the cause of the mixture errors, I'm incline to believe the occasional stalling on fan cut in may simply be a red herring.
Suffice to say, as has been said previously, it is very essential to have the AL4 at 60 degress when level checking and topping up.
It seems like there was quite a reasonable difference between box oil level between 55C and 65C, about 800cc.
However I now have doubts about the accuracy of the first level check, which of course would throw our whole conclusion out. I may not have measured the oil level accurately at the 55C mark, as when the engine is not running the oil level is higher, it tends to fill up the drain spout*, thus when you run the engine do the oil level check, it can at first seem correct, as the collected oil in the spout will run out. I did not let the oil run out long enough to be sure it was not simply 'spout collection' oil, therefore I don't think I was accurate enough with my 55C level test.
I would like to attempt the experiment again to be sure, as I put 2.5 liters of oil in (approx) just checked the manual now, it says 3 liters approx, so part of the large difference we experienced between the initial measurement at 55C and the final one at 65C might have been down to my error.

I hope that very soon Jim & I will be trying the same experiment on an 4HP20 box, this time I aim to make sure the conditions are more scientific.

Sorry for any confusion folks, my bad :oops:

*I cannot think of a word to describe the configuration of the drain plug in an AL4 box

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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Sid_the_Squid wrote: *I cannot think of a word to describe the configuration of the drain plug in an AL4 box
I don't think there is a word. Basically, the drain plug has a smaller concentric plug in it that is the end of a tube that is about 2 inches long. This smaller plug is removed and if oil flows out it's above the top of this tube. Much like how a normal and reserve fuel supply works in a motorcycle fuel tank.

Looking forward to doing the 4HP20 :) I must recheck mine as I seem to have been topping it up now for an eternity :twisted:

Sl4yer
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Unread post by Sl4yer »

CitroJim wrote:It will on a MK2 James as the brake pressure switch was deleted. It's a "ghost" fault :roll:

Mine had the usual "steering angle" fault Gareth and it crops up regularly and I've (and I think Richard has) seen it on EVERY Hydractive ECU I've diagnosed.
DickieG wrote:Check the date on your ecu as that fault showing up on a S2 would indicate that the ecu fitted is from a S1, as Jim mentions the brake pressure valve wasn't fitted to S2's so the original ecu would have been programmed accordingly.

The consequence of fitting a S1 ecu to a S2 is that once the car exceeds 16 mph the ecu switches into firm mode whilst it looks for the brake valve, after 5-10 minutes it gives up looking then works correctly albeit in a default state. Ultimately S1 and S2 Hydractive ecu's are not compatible.
Interesting chaps. I've had the Lexia out again tonight, in case I'd got the description drastically wrong. This is what I found:

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The ECU description page doesn't give any clues as to the version, but should it read Xantia II instead of just Xantia?

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I did notice that the brake pedal continued to be read as Pressed after I'd released it on some occasions. It takes a good press for the suspension ECU to record it as Pressed too, which makes sense (the ABS ECU sees it as pressed with the slightest pressure). So, how does a Mk 2 decide to go to FIRM mode due to the brake pedal???

Here's the Activa parameter screen for anyone interested:

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:D

James

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DickieG
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Unread post by DickieG »

The way to test it is to drive the car whilst observing the state of the suspension, the brake pressure sensor only switches under maximum braking so your screens don't really help.

Sl4yer
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Unread post by Sl4yer »

DickieG wrote:The way to test it is to drive the car whilst observing the state of the suspension, the brake pressure sensor only switches under maximum braking so your screens don't really help.
I'm sure you're right. I'll do that at some point. But the questions remain - how does a Mk 2 decide to switch to hard under braking, and why does it sometimes remain as Pressed, but not every time?

I take it the ECU date is on a label somewhere on the casing? I'll have a look at it. I can't believe it would be the wrong one, but you never know...

James

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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Sl4yer wrote: But the questions remain - how does a Mk 2 decide to switch to hard under braking, and why does it sometimes remain as Pressed, but not every time?
The ECU can calculate the braking force applied by measuring the rate of change of speed from the speed sensor during deceleration and to a lesser extent, the amount of dive as measured by the yew sensor on the front ARB. The second question, I'd hazard the input to the ECU is open-circuit as there is no sensor present and it may therefore "Float" to a random value.If the ECU is a MK2 one it will disregard it anyway or else assume the sensor is faulty and disregard it.

What news of my fleet? Well, as my V6 is now on the road, she'll henceforth be reported on in this blog. She passd her MOT on Monday and has been in constant use since, the Activa and 2.1TD have not been touched...

The V6 has been good this past week so this morning we took the bull by the horns, bit the bullet and took her on her first long journey to Somerset and back, a good round-trip of over 300 miles. She went a treat and never missed a beat. She aso returned 36MPG on the run but admittedly that was with still rather careful driving and not exceeding 70MPH and having the gearbox running with it's economy map. There was one occasion when I needed to get past a slower moving vehicle quickly and she did her double down-shift trick and flew past :lol:

It was interesting to feel the gearbox switching between it's maps on the journey, going from the economy upwards toward the sportier maps as conditions dicated. Impressive.

The V6 with it's hydractive suspension and very quiet engine makes a lovely relaxed, long-legged cruiser perfect for long fast trips :D Shes' very comfy and handles well but she's not on a par with the Activa in that department. Driving a V6 is akin to driving a drawing room on wheels with comfy old leather armchairs :D I love it...

We had a look at Dad's new Nissan Pixo today. Not bad as a city car but oh gosh, after a V6 it seemed to have no suspension on it at all and the seats are rock-hard. I took Dad out in it and the feeling was that of bouncing up the road, almost like a cork in a rough sea. It's a perky little performer but the engine, being a three cylinder, is a little rough and uncivilised. I took Dad out in the V6 over the same route and all the bumps that so upset the Pixo were non-existent. Still, it's not a fair comparason is it really? A V6 against a Pixo!

Dad has a problem with it. He's very deaf and the engine is so quiet he cannot hear it when it's idling. Nor can I very well but I could feel it vibrating on its mounts at idle rather than actually hearing it.

Against that, it's a well screwed-together little motor and overall, I was pretty well impressed with it. Not bad for something made in Mumbai! It goes round corners well but given it's very hard suspension, it's not really surprising.

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xantia_v6
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Unread post by xantia_v6 »

Jim, What fuel were you using to get that economy? I suppose I generally drive faster than you have reported, but have not acheived that impressive number.

I am glad you are enjoying the V6, it should last you a long time. I still enjoy mine (the Mk1). It is even better now I have replaced the Bitron sensor and the A/C has gone from 50% reliable to 100%.

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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Just running on standard BP unleaded Mike, not even the Ultimate stuff...

That mileage was achieved on fast A roads and a few slower A roads.

I do admit I was not pushing it very hard as I'm still letting everything gently bed in before really enjoying it!

Pleased the aircon is good on yours now, that's my next job as mine works but it's a bit rumbly. We could have done with it today as well!

Sid_the_Squid
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Unread post by Sid_the_Squid »

36MPG :shock: That is indeed impressive mpg, the best I've managed so far is 27mpg, mind you that is urban commuting mileage, never done any motorways yet. I still there theres a small air leak somewhere in the intake on mine though, just a hunch.

Toby_HDi
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Unread post by Toby_HDi »

It's amazing what a smooth and gentle right foot can achieve. :lol:

On the way back from Redditch from picking up my 3.0 Omega I returned 39mpg 8), this in a car that is heavier than the V6 Xantia (something around 1700kg I believe)

Motorways and Main A roads the whole way with the cruise set at 70mph (had someone following me)

Glad the V6 is up, running and legal Jim. Hope your enjoying it immensely :D

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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Toby_HDi wrote:Hope your enjoying it immensely :D
I am Toby, immensely :D It's been in daily use now for two weeks and so far, faultless. I did have a slightly worrying moment when I spotted a slight patch of dampness near the LH deive shaft oil seal but after wiping it, there has been no further reoccurrance. In fact the whole power unit is totally devoid of any leaks touch-wood.

I treated her to a new battery on Saturday as the old battery was a bit on the small side and not good for holding a full charge over an extended period. I got a good deal on the battery from the local factors. Interestingly, none of their parts catalogues list the V6, either for batteries or auxillary belts. I ended up with a diesel battery in the end.

The poor old 2.1TD and Activa have been standing idle all this time but on Saturday morning the 2.1TD was called in to be a worhorse to take a heavy burden of ruubbish to the tip. Despite two weeks of rest, he burst into life at the first turn of the key and ran very sweetly :lol:

The Activa also saw some action on Saturday. Sid the Squid came to visit and during talk he spoke of never having experienced an Activa. he has now :wink: I then drove us off to our local factors in it to pick up my battery and a new Auxillary belt for Sid's Green Goblin in an attempt to receify a squeak. I'll say no more on that as I'm sure you will Sid!

I will say my Activa is a brilliant drive but so different to the V6. I'm rather pleased I can flit between a manual and automatic without any worries and in truth, it was good to be in full control of the gears and clutch again!

Sid changed the gearbox oil in the Green Goblin and we performed another gearbox ECU initialisation just before Sid's departure. Again a very pleasant Saturday spent.

Whilst Sid did the oil change, I looked for why I could not hear the charcoal canister purge valve working on my V6 during an actuator test. I spent some time on that only to find the reason is the valve is hidden under the front wing mudshield and wrapped in a big rubber boot. In the event it is fine.

Xac's Activa has been keeping both of us busy this past week and this afternoon I joined Xac to help him adjust his roll corrector mechanism as despite all his work, she was still listing badly to port and not playing at all properly.

We found the cause of Xac's roll corrector woes and at one point, Xac was finally able to witness roll correction in action albeit with me lying under the car on ramps and wiggling the roll corrector with a screwdriver :roll:

At one point in proceedings, the car dropped rather suddenly at the front and I made a very hasty exit from under it :lol: It was all OK though as she was firmly up on ramps but you just cannot be too careful.

I'll not say anything further on Xac's Activa as I'm sure he will but suffice to say, it's been a good fun week on the Xantia front with plenty of interest and enjoyment :D

This week I finally hope to get to the root of my Activa cabin water leak and to look at the V6 cruise control problem.

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Xaccers
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Unread post by Xaccers »

Thanks for your help Jim, I'll give a full update tomorrow.
So you're ok with lying on a skateboard under the car with a screwdriver controlling the roll corrector as I drive round MK then? :D

Sid_the_Squid
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Unread post by Sid_the_Squid »

Sid the Squid came to visit and during talk he spoke of never having experienced an Activa. he has now
I have indeed, the closest thing to an Activa I have ever driven in the past is a mk3 prelude with 4WS, but even that pales in comparison to the Activa experience. At first its actually quite unnerving having no body roll, felt like I was not actually driving but instead playing ‘Gran turismo’.
The V6 exclusive and the Activa could not differ more, are you sure their both Xantias, and the Activa is not some Lotus in disguise? ;)
Despite the class A handling, the Activa is not for me, the suspension is just to hard, I just love the hydractive soft mode too much to ever give it up.

As for my squeak, I assumed it was the aux belt being covered in LHM from the recent HP pump leak, after Jim kindly changed the aux belt on Sat, it turned out that actually it was the ‘crank pulley’, which has, or rather had a bonded rubber section in the middle, which wasn’t so bonded any more. Doh!
So I’m off to Citroen Hatfield today to order the ‘crank pulley’, I can’t understand why they would have switched from using a solid pulley (mk1) to a semi rubber one which will ultimately break?
As a side note its interesting how the Citroen service site only lists 1 possible item, but Jim’s parts cd listed two.

So be warned V6 mk2 owners, if you get a squeak, especially with the AC on it could be the crank pulley which drives the aux belt.

Thanks for your help Jim, sorry for the blog hijack :)

KP
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Unread post by KP »

They will have moved to it for the same reason as Dual Mass Flywheels, They damp the engine a little so a little less vibration inside the cabin is felt and on a V6 im sure it will help with the forces the engine itself as a Vee'er creates....

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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

It seems to have been a long time again between blog updates. The main reason is that I'm not well at the moment. I fell sick on Thursday and am only now beginning to come out of it, hence my relative absence from the forum.

Despite not being well, I did perk up for a visit from Sid the Squid on Saturday to replace his delaminating crank pulley. He is now squeak-free and we were both shocked at how the two halves of the pulley could be rotated freely with just finger pressure :twisted: It could have let go at any time... I had a drive of Sid's Green Goblin which heighted suspicions that all is not well with my V6 :( but more on that later...

Despite not being able to wake up on Sunday morning, I did get enough enthusiasm raised to go to the tranquil depths of Hertfordshire to visit Lawrence1973 and do a bit of electrical wiring on his 406. He is currently transplanting a low mileage Xantia engine into it following the destruction of his old engine by a stray piece of metal from a badly executed pump dearmouring job getting into the inlet tract. It was interesting to see the carnage that resulted. Here's a couple of shots:

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Nasty! We suspect the air ducting was removed for the dearmouring that resulted in a lump of armour leaping straight into the inlet manifold.

My V6 has been in constant use and sadly, a few faults have made an appearance which means it'll be off the road for a bit and even worse, the engine will have to be lifted again :twisted:

The more minor faults are a leaky LHM pump from one of the piston covers and a very leaky pressure regulator; leaking from the end where the flat bracket bolts on. Both jobs I shall have a word with Pleiades about. The major issue is that both the pump and pressure regulator are not easy to remove but as the engine has to come out anyway...

The other problem is the rear trailing arm bearings have had it. I can see a bit of negative camber on the rear wheels and there are a lot of clonks and groans emanating from the rear over bumps. I've never done this job on a Xantia but I soon will be!

I'm wondering if the car was out of use for a long period and the rear bearings suffered? I had to replace the rear hydractive block to cure a leaky electrovalve that had failed due to corrosion. Yesterday, being bored and needing a bit of stimulation, I looked closely at the old block and electrovalve. The corrosion on the alloy of the electrovalve is very plain to see; so bad that you can just see the green of the O ring poking through the corroded alloy...

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I'm not even sure the new electrovalve is good as I have a rather high tick rate in soft mode (10-15S) but an almost infinite one in hard mode :twisted: This car really is keeping me busy :roll:

So why has the engine to come out again? Well, firstly it'll make access to the HP pump and PR easier but yesterday I realised I made a fundamental error in rebuilding the gearbox :twisted: I did a mix and match of good bits from the two gearboxes and it was only today in reassembling the remains of both into one gearbox that I realise I did not take sufficient care in checking or setting the input shaft end-float. It should only be 0.02mm +/- 0.01mm and in reassembling the bits, that one has a negative float of about 2mm so goodness knows what the other 'box has :roll:

In driving Sid's Green Goblin, I know mine is not as smooth on gearchanges as it should be and I reckon the 'box has excessive end-float. Only one thing to do.... Luckily the end cover only has to come off and the whole 'box will not need stripping.

I've had to make up a special tool to measure end-float accurately rather than guessing it as I did previously :oops: I needed something to clamp on the end of the input shaft that would allow the shaft to be pushed and pulled. I hit on the idea of using a die-stock with a specially made insert inside it that worked like a die. Screwing up the screws compresses the insert and makes it grip the shaft. I made the insert from hard nylon on my lathe..

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This is the tool in use on the spare gearbox:

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I've also looked at the aircon water leak on the Activa and found the drain spout was indeed broken as Richard suspected. This spout being broken will allow all aircon condensate straight into the pasenger footwell.

Following Richard's advice, I sleeved the spout with some very close-fitting plastic tube and popped the spot black in place with a liberal dose of silicone RTV all over the new sleeve and left it to set before replacing the drain pipe.

Here's a shot of the broken spout, the repair sleeve and the drain pipe proper:

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And here is a picture of the spout in place before fitting the drain pipe. Access is not that good :lol:

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I just need some nice hot weather now to test the quality of this job!!!

That's it for now. That represents light duties by my standards. I'll have to be fully recovered before the engine out job is attempted on the V6 though :wink: