Merged Lexia & Diagbox threads

[bobins]

It would be great if you could bribe the grey cells, as I too was hunting about for this damned procedure. I put a brand new Varta AGM with a higher crank rating on the X7 as soon as I got her as I wanted peace of mind. That, and with all the kit on there I wanted to ensure it was never going to let me down. However the damned Economy mode comes on after 3 minutes REGARDLESS of how long the previous journey was, so I'm not accepting that it gives you an amount of battery time wth engine off according to how long you have continuously just driven! I had a good look around Diagbox and cannot see the option anywhere to tell it I have a nice new battery and the amps etc., so it probably still thinks I have the old battery on and is being UBER cautious! If you can remember anything about the procedure please let us know. Can you confirm it was Diagbox that you were using and also your X7?

It was at least a couple of years ago that I did the procedure, so it would have been an older install of Diagbox, but it was definitely Diagbox and it was definitely on my X7. I think I proceded with the normal route in Diagbox for testing with a Midtronics tester, but when I got the option to confirm whether I had the midtronics tester I ticked 'no', and it led me on a different route for testing the battery. I think the key is that you have to start down the route of saying your going to test with the Midtronics unit, then you diverge when it realises you haven't actually got it !! But as I say, it was at least a couple fo years ago and I've been to sleep since then so my brain has reset

[bobins]

I've delved back into my old posts from three years ago !! and found I'd posted this in relation to testing the battery without using a Midtronics tester:

"I think there's an option to check the battery condition using Diagbox without the Midtronics. ISTR it was something along the lines of..... checking the battery and/or voltage using Midtronics tester -> click here if Midtronics tester not available. You were then presented with a few procedures along the lines of: turn ignition on, turn lights on for 10 minutes, don't open or close doors, sing La Marseillaise at the top of your voice, etc. There was no option using this route to connect a Midtronics tester. This would have been using Diagbox somewhere around v6.20. It was a few months ago that I experimented with this technique, so not all of the procedures may be accurate "

[cachaciero]

FWIW On earlier C5's Economy Mode is purely a time function set in the BSI, nothing clever measuring battery capacity, a difficult thing to do reliably anyway.

[GiveMeABreak]

Great - that's a good start. I'm just waiting on my new Diagbox 8.17 update arriving in the post tomorrow and then I'll let loose on the blighter.

[GiveMeABreak]

FWIW On earlier C5's Economy Mode is purely a time function set in the BSI, nothing clever measuring battery capacity, a difficult thing to do reliably anyway.

Yep, you're right there - the option was available to set a time on the Mk1s for sure - but that's what I don't understand about these new Carlos Fandango battery measuring do daas on the X7. If it is monitoring my battery - it should know its got enough juice to power up the Blackpool Illuminations and stop turning the radio off at the really important bit!

[GiveMeABreak]

I've delved back into my old posts from three years ago !! and found I'd posted this in relation to testing the battery without using a Midtronics tester: "

Thanks great - well we know that some coding functions were moved to the online subscription access only - what items exactly I guess we'll never know, but this new version is supposed to put everything back on as it was. So I'll have another check as soon as it's locked and loaded!

[Xantippa]

So is it just so that with newer Diagbox it's impossible to do that "battery change" without tester? I've got 7.57 on my PC.

I'll have to try it again because there was that option "I don't have Midtronics", but at first I didn't get ahead from there...

[GiveMeABreak]

I never actually went that far, as I thought - "well I don't have one of those, so no point in going any further" and went back to search for somewhere else. Can't check now as I'm in the middle of an install, but will check it out as soun as I can.

[cachaciero]

FWIW On earlier C5's Economy Mode is purely a time function set in the BSI, nothing clever measuring battery capacity, a difficult thing to do reliably anyway.

Yep, you're right there - the option was available to set a time on the Mk1s for sure - but that's what I don't understand about these new Carlos Fandango battery measuring do daas on the X7. If it is monitoring my battery - it should know its got enough juice to power up the Blackpool Illuminations and stop turning the radio off at the really important bit!

The only way I know to track battery capacity accurately is to measure every last milliamp in and every last milliamp out subtract one from the other take into account the battery terminal volts at a predetermined charge current and temperature and given all that it becomes possible to come up with a reasonably accurate value for battery state. Now to do that requires a reasonable amount of processing power allied to the requisite sensors and it needs to be on 24/7. Such solutions exist they are available in the Marine industry (you don't need flat batteries offshore on a sailing boat!) But for the average motor car I would have thought it overkill.

[cachaciero]

Something I found for later C5's not sure if it covers the X7 though, but it's not the way earlier C5's work but it would explain why you can't change it if its a hard built in bit of code.

III - "NOMINAL" AND "ECONOMY" MODE
Section 4
A - NOMINAL MODE
All electrical functions are authorised in nominal mode.
1 - Range management
When the engine is running:
• If the alternator information has been present for at least 2 minutes 30
seconds, nominal mode remains active for a 5 minute timer after the ignition
is switched off.
• If the alternator information has been present for more than 2 minutes 30
seconds, nominal mode remains active for twice the length of time for which
the engine has been operating, up to a maximum of 30 minutes after the
ignition is switched off
- Example:
for a 30 minute time in nominal mode, the engine must be running for 15 minutes.
2 - Conditions for switching to economy mode
Ignition key position
Description
Off or ignition key
The 30 minute timed period only starts counting down when
removed
"wake-up" or non permanent functions are active (*)
Ignition
The 30 minute timed period starts counting down
independently to the "wake-up" or permanent functions
(*) e.g.: Radio
B - ECONOMY MODE
The "economy" consumption mode is only available in the alternator not operational
status (engine not running).
Economy mode prevents the battery from being discharged when the engine is not
running.
Non permanent electrical functions are deactivated regardless of ignition key position.
Only a few "permanent functions" and some of the "permanent functions with locked
request" are authorised in economy mode.
C4 & NEW LOOK C5 MULTIPLEX SYSTEMS AND BSI

[GiveMeABreak]

Thanks for that Tony - It just isn't working with me at all. I can drive 40 minutes with no stops, stop the car switch the radio on and I'm lucky to get 3 minutes before Economy mode engages! Something isn't right. i know there is a battery measurement device:- Number 15 on the diagram below - but it looks an insignificant little thing! Nothing else about it anywhere that I can see - so far!
It's called a 'Battery Charge Status Unit'!

[GiveMeABreak]

OK so done a bit more digging and found a buried document on this unit.

One interesting thing is that if you ever have a jump start or connect another battery to the one on the car - here's a 'compulsory' warning from the docs:

N.B. : It is compulsory that the negative clip of an external battery charger is connected to the negative cable of the ancillaries battery (at the crimp terminal of the battery charge status unit or at an earth nut) but not directly to the negative terminal of the ancillaries battery ; This precaution guarantees correct resetting of the "ancillaries battery charge status" parameter.
So if you didn't know this and connected it straight to the terminal - I'm guessing it could muck up the parameters and that could cause other issues....

It seems to do a lot for it's size!:
Role:

• The main function of the battery charge status unit is to calculate the ancillaries battery charge status and transmit this information to the built-in systems interface to fine-tune the activation of the energy economy mode.
  N.B. : The ancillaries battery charge status is calculated from measured physical parameters (voltage, current) and calculated parameters (battery internal temperature).
  The battery charge status unit has a role permitting optimisation of the management of the electrical energy.
  The battery state of charge unit contains the following functions:
  
  Autodiagnostics reporting any faults detected on the sensors and/or internal electronics of the battery charge status unit
  Storing of the minimum current consumed on the 12V network when the vehicle is on standby
  Detection of crossing of an ancillaries battery charge threshold every 10 % with triggering of the built-in systems interface BSI1
  Making the measured physical quantities available (Voltage, current and temperature of the ancillaries battery)
  Detection of disconnection of the ancillaries battery

Then, right at the end of the document there is this little nugget:
4. Programming - initialisation
"When replacing the battery charge status unit, it is imperative to configure the type of ancillaries battery in the battery charge status unit ; Using the diagnostic equipment".

Therefore, there must be an option somewhere in Diagbox to configure the type of battery connected. I didn't manage to get the new Diagbox software on tonight - a zillion hours installing so far - looks like t will be tomorrow for the updates and then off to play.

[Xantippa]

Hmm... If problem is that simple that IBS (intelligent battery sensor) thinks my full battery isn't full, should I just disconnect battery and discharge it? Then connect it back to car and maybe use external charger (connected properly!) to charge battery if there's not enough current for starting. Then IBS would be fooled that battery is fully charged and no more economy mode.

[cachaciero]

The reason that they specify that a battery charger be connected to to the crimp side which I am guessing is equivalent to to the car body is so that the current from the charger passes through the unit, that way it can count the amps in, which it would need to know to maintain a record of battery status, connect directly to the battery post and the battery gets a lot of juice that it knows nothing about, so the battery status would be in error.
Now connector b has two wires my first thought was that this would be serial bus data but that would mean that this unit has no connection to the +ve side of the battery so it would be interesting to know where those two wires went to. For the unit to do what it says it does it will require current data ( shunt on connector a) temperature (that could come from the battery post) and voltage ??? plus some way of communicating.??
My guess would be that the unit may well be looking at a correspondence between voltage and state of charge as determined by a count of total amps in. At the moment it sees that it has a fully charged voltage for very few amps in ergo low capacity battery ergo short time before going into economy mode.
Might be an idea to remove the battery discharge it down to say 11v and then charge it back up with the charger connected in the right place. Just read the post from Xantippa! who is suggesting the same thing so on the basis that two people have come up with the same possible solution it is probably worth a try.

[cachaciero]

Did a little bit of web trawling trying to find out more about these devices, after all if PSA is using them others must be too, found this:
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/main/ ... e-designs/ which really just confirms that they do work the way I thought they did but goes into much more detail.