Xantia hesitates...now won't start

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 01 Jan 2009, 13:54

Hi Toby and happy newyear -

Please allow me to try again to soften out my previous mistake

If you look into the camcog - from (cars) RHS - you should be able to recognise the slot in both the cog and the axle, where the allen key fits.
These slots should of course coincide, making sure the key has not failed.

That will make sure your cam axle is set correct at timin index when you lock it using the index dovel.

Wish you luck, you certainly deserves it now

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 01 Jan 2009, 14:19

Of course. Silly question that.

Thanks Anders, appreciated. No worries about mistakes, we all make them....hence this thread

So the cam can just go in either of teh two ways and as long as the sprocket is sitting on the woodruff key, when the holes align it'll be timed?

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 01 Jan 2009, 15:30

Toby_HDi wrote:... as long as the sprocket is sitting on the woodruff key, when the holes align it'll be timed?

Yes, thats certainly my opinion too.
(and it is of course a woodruff key, not an allen key which is a hex key to drive hexinsert headbolts

)

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 03 Jan 2009, 16:40

New rocker on, camshaft back in, cam bearing casting back on.

I did recover some roller bearings, I had a good fish about with a magnetic screwdriver and recovered some - nowhere near 15 but I fail to see how 15 would fit in the rocker. I will change the oil very soon anyway.

I cannot for the life of me get the cam oil seal in. Its halfway in now but you can't get the leverage to push it in. Any ideas? I have no stud to use as the BoL suggests.

Once the head cover is back on, will jack the car back up and fish about for that washer - Citroen only sell them in packs of 20 and I'm not paying for 20 when I need just one.

I have all of Sunday and Monday to work on it so hopefully I can make progress. Have come in now as it's getting dark, quite cold and am losing interest for today.

Think I may have to incorporate this thread into my blog when everything is sorted.

wheeler · Unread post by **wheeler** » 03 Jan 2009, 21:06

Toby_HDi wrote:I did recover some roller bearings, I had a good fish about with a magnetic screwdriver and recovered some - nowhere near 15 but I fail to see how 15 would fit in the rocker. I will change the oil very soon anyway.

Dont know if thats an exact amount,just a rough guess from memory. did you count how many were in the new one ?

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 03 Jan 2009, 21:15

wheeler wrote:
Toby_HDi wrote:I did recover some roller bearings, I had a good fish about with a magnetic screwdriver and recovered some - nowhere near 15 but I fail to see how 15 would fit in the rocker. I will change the oil very soon anyway.
Dont know if thats an exact amount,just a rough guess from memory. did you count how many were in the new one ?

You cannot see them in the new one?

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 03 Jan 2009, 21:37

Toby_HDi wrote:I cannot for the life of me get the cam oil seal in. Its halfway in now but you can't get the leverage to push it in. Any ideas? I have no stud to use as the BoL suggests.

Any socket in your toolbox that will do the job ?

How about a poke at neighbours or frinds after a short length of a suitable diameter water piping ?
Clean off any burrs and sharp edge from the pipe end then use it as a stud.
Cant remember if a 1" will just slide over the cam axle, but its got to be close

Got a shifter key for an angle grinder around ?
These are often U-shaped and may exactly fit over the axle and seal.

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 03 Jan 2009, 21:40

Yer I have plenty of sockets, I just don't have any stud.

I was thinking perhaps if I remove the cam bearing casting again and then slot the seal in that way then replace the casting (I keep thinking I should have put more sealant on it anyway) or is this a no-no?

Thanks

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 03 Jan 2009, 22:14

It does in fact make it very easy to fit the cam axle seal, as it would be a simple push fit.
I just wonder if there are any other snags removing and fitting the upper casting once more ?
It does not look so according to the schematic, but then its you, not me, who have hands on the parts.

What does the cap casting sealing do anyway ?
IMHO you should not use anything that could disturb the cam axle clearance in the cap casting.
My concern is that the cam clearance could be too high.

EDIT : ahhh - of course. The rocker cover (and seal) is only covering the top. That will make the oil seep out the cap casting joint if no sealing is there. Messy

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 03 Jan 2009, 22:22

AndersDK wrote:I just wonder if there are any other snags removing and fitting the upper casting once more ?

I believe not, it would just mean time spent taking it off (having of course to loosen and tighten then progressively) and having to reseal

AndersDK wrote:What does the cap casting sealing do anyway ?
IMHO you should not use anything that could disturb the cam axle clearance in the cap casting.
My concern is that the cam clearance could be too high.

I believe its there as a kind of gasket, preventing oil from seeping out between it and the head. I believe it also just aids with fixing it as the only bolts you use to fix it are the ones that go through the bearing caps. I'm sure it does not affect the clearance as it still gets bolted right onto the head. There was old sealant there on removal and the BoL states to use sealant on refitting anyway

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 03 Jan 2009, 22:39

Yes you are right Toby - I just found out.
The HDI engine really is different in many aspects to earlier engine types.

Still I can remember it was much easier fitting the cam seals, before the end caps were fitted on the old style diesels.
Its much the same method you are using here.

Have a good nights sleep and let us know any progres by end of day tomorrow

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 04 Jan 2009, 13:05

Any one have any idea where a cam sprocket bolt could possibly be hiding?

I found the washer for the head cover and its all back together, need to find this bolt (which dropped out yesterday as I was experimenting trying to use it for the oil seal) but it's made it's bid for freedom and well and truly hidden

Once I've found it I can re-time etc

Might have to adjust the air gap on the cam sensor too. Am assuming the target plate is the back of the hub?

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 05 Jan 2009, 11:35

I cannot find that cam sprocket bolt. I have looked everywhere and I cannot see it. Anyone with more experience with retrieving bolts know where it could lodge?

I don't have the patience today so have come in. Also, I don't fancy crawling about under the car when the ground is wet. I don't mind cold but not wet.

I just want it sorted now

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 05 Jan 2009, 15:55

Found it! Went out for a last look today as patience was returning and I saw it almost straight away - inside the engine mount casting

How it got in there I'll never know! Had to take the casting off to get it.

Now, another problem arises (one thing after another)

I have a feeling I am not going to like the answer to this one but:

Why would the crankshaft be solid? I cannot turn it, tried to so that I could time it up, got so far and now it won't shift - I have twiddled the cam in case it was touching a valve but still it won't budge. I don't want to force it in case something gives (if it already hasn't)

EDIT: I am an idiot - it's official. I'd left the car in 5th from when I removed the pulley