2001 C5 2.2HDi - Very Rattly then Stopped!!

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 23 Jan 2011, 23:25

just had a look in my manual and it says that the inlet manifold is held down by 28 bolts

and that they must be torqued down in a certain order

Have you removed all 28?

it looks like 2 rows of 6 for the back cam
2 rows of 6 for the front cam
another four in a row in front of the front cam

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 24 Jan 2011, 00:06

oh yes, and i counted the soddin things!! - twice!
I am assuming 2 dowels at the front?
If i could find a way to start levering the back off then i would but access is non existent.
I can actually see the inlet cam - just, but cannot seem to lift the cover any more.
Of course, the brilliant Haynes book just says 'and lift off the cover'!!

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 24 Jan 2011, 18:32

I've had a look in my Citroen service Documentation info and to remove the inlet manifold/camshaft cover it shows 28 screws and says you also haveto remove 8 studs down the middle between the two camshafts.

I've tried to copy the picture but I can't seem to do it from my copy. Maybe someone else can display the picture.

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 24 Jan 2011, 18:37

Just had another look and the 8 studs are those which hold the injectors in place.

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 26 Jan 2011, 15:16

Those injector studs are not that substantial, they could be removed by using a small Torx socket but not sure i want to due to any one of them snapping off.
Will put the injectors back in to see if its the injector or the wiring.
I would have thought that if a rocker had gone then i would be hearing funny noises from the top end ??
Really want it to be the injector but could be the electrical connector.

What am i looking at if the problem is now electrical ??

Cannot believe how many coincidences i'm getting - for one problem!!!

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 27 Jan 2011, 08:50

maybe it would be easier to buy a compression tester that will work this engine. I'm thinking it would basically verify that everything except the injectors / ECU are okay and might save you from a lot of dismantling

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 27 Jan 2011, 18:42

Struggling with a compression tester that fits the short injector studs on this engine

but yes that would be the way forward.
If it is electrical - where will my search lead to??
Anything historical??

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 27 Jan 2011, 21:19

you would have to verify that the wiring is present and correct.

basically you would need to check the four pairs of wires from each injector back to the ECU. you would be looking for 0 ohms from the injector connector to the relevant pin on the ECU connector, and you would be looking for no chafing or shorts anywhere in the run.

To verify that the ECU is driving the injectors correctly would mean posting it to BBAreman or a similar company for testing.

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 27 Jan 2011, 21:27

As an update:

The car started first go?? with 2 injectors swapped and sounded much smoother but still on 3 cylinders.
I disconnected the injectors with the car running, injectors 1-3 all stopped the engine running but injector 4 made no difference.
I have done a continuity check on the wires from the injectors back to the ECU and they were fine so no breaks that i could see.
Is there something else i should be looking at or should i try to get another ECU.
Anything in the programming that could have gone amiss??
Can they be repaired??

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 27 Jan 2011, 22:16

Presumably you now have a different injector in that position, so its either got to be low compression or no signal. Do you have access to an oscilloscope?

Peter

woodywoodpecker · Unread post by **woodywoodpecker** » 28 Jan 2011, 01:03

corsehf wrote:As an update:

The car started first go?? with 2 injectors swapped and sounded much smoother but still on 3 cylinders.
I disconnected the injectors with the car running, injectors 1-3 all stopped the engine running but injector 4 made no difference.
I have done a continuity check on the wires from the injectors back to the ECU and they were fine so no breaks that i could see.
Is there something else i should be looking at or should i try to get another ECU.
Anything in the programming that could have gone amiss??
Can they be repaired??

Andy,
Hi mate first check number 4 injector wiring plug is making contact with the 2 spades when it clicks onto the injector, The female spades in the plug do open up and lose contact if they have been removed a few times i had this happen to me. Next borrow a compression tester that will screw into the glow plug hole in the head and check all compression figures. I would do it in that order or else you will be going round in circles with this, I read the other day that the exhaust rockers on these are prone to fracturing aswell if revved to hard, I would check the above and if that checks out ok then remove the cam cover and check the rockers next. This could also be a sticking, burnt or bent valve on number 4 cyclinder which your compression test will tell you, keep pluggin mate you will find it.

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 28 Jan 2011, 09:00

I have some Noid lights somewhere, will need to dig them out as that will check the feed to the ECU.
Thought about the rockers but drew a blank on getting the inlet manifold off - wouldn't budge, well managed to lift the front part up about 5mm off the studs.
Not sure if i want to attempt to remove the glow plugs! - i had been advised to leave well alone as they seize in the head - not sure i need the added agro at the mo. My compression tester will not fit the short studs on the injector mountings.

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 28 Jan 2011, 09:51

dieselnutjob wrote:
corsehf wrote:I have never had an injector fail before on any car so this is new to me and can only go on what other people think.
I am assuming that as i do not know which injector is faulty that i can as a way of elimination and with the car running, just disconnect the power supply to each injector in turn - feasible??
Don't do that.
If you disconnect one with the engine running I think it can destroy the ECU.

The ECU fires the injectors at over 80V. And it uses the electrical energy in one injector to help fire the other, in pairs. My understanding is that if you disconnect an injector with the engine running that it cause voltage spikes that are high enough to damage the ECU. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read that though.

Also it implies that disconnecting one injector will also disable the other one in the pair, so the effect might not be as obvious as you think.

Read this
http://www.christiantena.net/motor/peug ... epump.html

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 28 Jan 2011, 10:03

from the above page

#
17 - Feature of the diesel injector control
The diesel injectors are controlled by 2 control stages of the injection ECU :
# Control stage 1:Injector group 1 - 4.
# Control stage 2:Injector group 2 - 3.
The control stages of the diesel injectors are used to obtain the following voltages :
# A peak voltage of 80 volts required when the diesel injectors start to lift.
# A voltage of 50 volts required to keep the diesel injectors open.

The control stages incorporated into the injection ECU each have a capacitor which stores the power required to control the diesel injectors.

Between each injection, the injection ECU sends pulses on the coil of the injector which is not working.

The pulses create an induced voltage to charge the corresponding control stage (capacitor).

WARNING : The control stage cannot charge itself when a fault is present on the supply line of a diesel injector.

A safety system inside the ECU disconnects the control stages when the engine is switched off.

Here's a thought, you could disconnect either 1&4, or 2&3. (not while the engine is running, please)
Lets say that you disconnect 1&4 and the engine now stops knocking.
This would prove that injectors 2&3 are okay and that the ECU outputs to injectors 2&3 are okay as well.
Now put the known good injectos from 2&3 into 1&4.
Only connect 1&4 (known good injectors).
If the engine runs without knocking this would prove that
a: compression is also okay on 1&4
b: ECU outputs to 1&4 are okay.

So now you know that your problem either injector 2 or 3.

So swap 2 into 1 and try again.

etc.

I know it's a pain in the butt but such a process of elimination was the only way I fixed my 806, and I got there in the end.

corsehf · Unread post by **corsehf** » 31 Jan 2011, 23:55

Sorry the updates are taking a while but the car is parked away up the street at my parents house and i have no way of getting power to it - neither can i move it as the brakes have stuck on solid so i am left to work on it in the dark!!

Anyway, as an update, found the noid lights and have now checked the wiring to each injector with these and there appears to be a signal at each injector so now it appears i need to concentrate on getting a compression tester that fits or soaking the glow plugs in PlusGas?

I can only imagine a rocker arm has broken surely?
The timing is all spot on.