Trying To Avoid 1.6HDI Turbo Failure

[Old-Guy]

3) Faulty injectors/seals can contribute to sooty oil. Evidently sometimes there is a visible leak, which I can check for periodically, but if the problem occurs due to the spray pattern, that will not be so obvious.

I suspect that the injector seal leak being referred to here is the external fire seal between cylinder head and injector body. This can be a problem in any engine where the injector is inside the cam cover. If the fire seal leaks, extremely hot gas leaks into the cam cover. The Mercedes Vito of a few years ago was notorious in this respect; I've seen one with the cam case almost completely filled with 'coke'. The van wasn't worth the cost of a (scarse) second-hand engine.

[Sundancesquid]

Hi I'm new to the forum, car is a 2007 Xsara Picasso 1.6hdi 92, 107000 miles. serviced with Total ineo ECS every 12.5k. Running very smooth, good power and mpg.

I have been reading (and am am a little concerned) about the turbo problems with this engine.

Inspecting the engine I have found some of the black material around the no.3 injector (3rd one along from the left), the black stuff is hard and brittle when cold, but if I get the engine nice and hot it softens to a consistency a bit like warm toffee. I have scraped and hooked out as much as I can (as soon as it leaves the hot engine it hardens to a brittle coal like substance!

Volume of the stuff removed is about 2 tablespoons.

Ok question time.

1. I have read that the said stuff can end up in the engine oil, which in turn can kill the turbo. Does anyone know how/where this happens?

2. The injector clamp bolts are indeed loose as 1275jstrap said they would be. If I get the engine nice and hot (so that the said stuff around the injector and copper seal washer softens. Do you think it will seal if I torque it down?

3. I am interested by this blanking off of the "egr", does anyone have any more info. on doing this.

Thanks.

[Bob L'eponge]

The injector clamp bolts are indeed loose as 1275jstrap said they would be. If I get the engine nice and hot (so that the said stuff around the injector and copper seal washer softens. Do you think it will seal if I torque it down?

Might do, but if it has been leaking long enough for the dreaded 'coal' to have built up, the seal may well have had a groove worn into it by the escaping hot gas.

Some thoughts on this issue here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=43505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BigBadBob]

Hi I'm new to the forum, car is a 2007 Xsara Picasso 1.6hdi 92, 107000 miles. serviced with Total ineo ECS every 12.5k. Running very smooth, good power and mpg.

I have been reading (and am am a little concerned) about the turbo problems with this engine.

Inspecting the engine I have found some of the black material around the no.3 injector (3rd one along from the left), the black stuff is hard and brittle when cold, but if I get the engine nice and hot it softens to a consistency a bit like warm toffee. I have scraped and hooked out as much as I can (as soon as it leaves the hot engine it hardens to a brittle coal like substance!

Volume of the stuff removed is about 2 tablespoons.

Ok question time.

1. I have read that the said stuff can end up in the engine oil, which in turn can kill the turbo. Does anyone know how/where this happens?

2. The injector clamp bolts are indeed loose as 1275jstrap said they would be. If I get the engine nice and hot (so that the said stuff around the injector and copper seal washer softens. Do you think it will seal if I torque it down?

3. I am interested by this blanking off of the "egr", does anyone have any more info. on doing this.

Thanks.

Interesting post Sundancesquid.
WIth respect to the injector seal, I would ask an expert like 1275jstrap (I think he gave his contact details in an earlier post on this thread). However, why would you risk not doing the job properly when the consequences can be so dire? (sounds to me like you've just caught this in time and may well have saved your engine)
EGR blanking, I found out about with a few searches on the subject. The valve puts soot from the exhaust back into the engine oil. It also causes quite a few reliability problems, and erratic throttle response. Mine runs much more smoothly since blanking the egr - and why would I want soot in the engine oil anyway?
If you do find out more about sorting out the injector seal, it would be interesting to hear an update on this thread.
Robin

[lexi]

I would still change the oil every 6k on that engine myself.

[uncle buck]

Not sure if this is already posted on the forum, if it is.... the more exposure the better!

Citroen issued a bulletin to dealers regarding the oil change procedure on all DV6 engines (1.6HDI)

OIL CHANGE PROCEDURE ON ALL DV6 ENGINES

It is necessary to follow a specific oil change procedure on all DV6 and DV6U engines so as to ensure that no used oil remains to mix with the new oil.

The following method must be used:

• The engine oil temperature must be at least 50°C :
- the engine oil temperature is considered to be at 50°C when the water temperature indicator is between 80°C and 90°C or the cooling fan has cut in
• ensure that the vehicle is level (side to side and fore and aft)
• remove the oil filter to allow the circuit to drain completely
• remove the oil filler cap and the dipstick
• remove the drain plug
• allow the oil to drain by gravity for at least 10 minutes (DO NOT USE SUCTION METHODS)
• fit a new oil filter
• refit the drain plug with a new sealing washer
• fill the engine with quantity of oil recommended for the engine
• refit the oil filler cap and the dipstick
• run the engine at idle until the oil pressure warning lamp goes out (about 1 minute)
• wait 5 minutes
• check the oil level using the dipstick: the level should be as close as possible to, but not exceeding the maximum mark (1) so as to be between (1) and (3)

For information, the lower mark (2) = Min (0%) the upper mark (1) = Max (100%) the intermediate mark (3) = ¾ litre.


CONSEQUENCES OF NOT KEEPING TO THE OIL CHANGE INTERVALS

If the customer does not have the oil changed at the recommended intervals, the oil will become excessively polluted and will no longer ensure the correct lubrication of the engine. One of the first consequences is inadequate lubrication of the turbocharger bearings causing a failure which is repeated after the turbocharger is replaced. Subsequent symptoms resulting from the reduced level of lubrication will be a noisy engine and then destruction of the engine.

We remind you that if the customer does not keep to the servicing intervals recommended in the Maintenance and Guarantee Guide, the customer will be responsible for the durability of the mechanical parts of the engine.
In this case, the any related repairs needed are not covered by the new vehicle warranty.

CONSEQUENCES OF NOT FOLLOWING THE OIL CHANGE PROCEDURE

If the oil changes are not done as described above, all deposits of old oil will not be removed and will very quickly pollute the new oil, accelerating the ageing of the oil in the engine lubrication circuit (even causing the oil to congeal).

The consequences for the engine are the same as if the oil change intervals are not observed. As a result, any related repairs needed are not covered under the new vehicle warranty.

Cheers.

[KP]

As others have said, the service interval is far too long and needs cutting back to secure the life of the turbo as even the above methods wont work long term for it.It just gets too hot for its size really.

Oil is dirt cheap these days, especially with some offers from halfrauds and the like that appear sometimes so just stock up on it and filters and do the job in 30-60minutes one evening when you get near the mileage.

Allowing the engine to idle before shut off is a good idea. Personally i try and reverse into a parking space when parking up and just use the clutch to do the work as its easier on the turbo and engine then and helps allow some spin down time.

I've ran a few Turbo petrols over my time and learned the hard way what happens if you dont cool down Diesels aren't as bad but then it still depends on how they have been driven before hand as well.

[uncle buck]

I agree 100% regarding the service intervals, no matter how good the oil is the contaminants have to go somewhere.



Cheers.

[micky707]

If the injectors on the 1.6 HDI have a tendency to keep working loose then what is the difference on the 2L and 2,2?

[Peter.N.]

I would re emphasise the advice about more frequent oil changes, even if you do have injector leakage changing the oil more frequently will help keep the engine clean. I have always changed the oil in my XUDs at 5000 mile and used the cheapest in spec oil available which in my case is Comma semi synthetic at about £13 for 5 litres, I also use this oil with the Hdi's and change it at about 8000 miles as they are a cleaner burning engine. In over 25 years and half a million miles of TD Citroens I have never had a turbo fail and have had engines last for 300,000 miles.

Peter

[uncle buck]

Personally I think the sump design is responsible for a lot of the problems with this engine.

The drain plug is on the bottom of the sump and is recessed upwards by about 10-15mm, add to this the depth of the captive threading inside the sump for the drain bolt and I'm guessing you're looking at approximately 20mm of height.....So even with the car totally level and draining the oil per Citroen's instruction you will be left with quite a bit of old oil left in the sump.


Cheers.

[Peter.N.]

Interesting, I had wondered if the sump capacity was less as its a smaller engine but that certainly won't help. The same problem exists with the Ford 1.6 diesel engine, in fact it could be even worse as there is a thread about it on 'Honest Johns' about 400 long! Is it the same as the Citroen engine or just related, and does it have the same sump?

Peter

[RichardW]

It's the same engine Peter - it's also used in the MINI and some others. The oil capacity is small - only 3.75 litres. I would caution against using 'cheap' oil though - you must use a low ash / SAPs oil to prolong the life of the DPF. I think in pursuit of a hyper efficient engine, PSA / Ford went a bit far with this one, and left it with a propensity to eat turbos (the engine is nothing like the ones you have run Peter, and many turbos have failed at low mileages - like less than 50k). Trouble is, once the turbo has been wrecked the engine is almost scrap, as it is nearly impossible to remove all the built up carbon - and this results in the new turbo being lunched very quickly. Some scary / sobering pics in this report...1.6 HDi turbo replacement

[Peter.N.]

Thanks for that info Richard, that would at least go some way to explaining the problem. I appreciate the ash issue but as you say neither of mine have a DPF so that's not a problem. Both of them have done about 200k with the original turbo. The small sump capacity would make the case for even more frequent oil changes.

Peter

[uncle buck]

I've been reading up on the problems of this engine design for a while, there are loads of reports on the Ford forums and they make interesting reading.

The engine fitted with DPF seems to suffer more than the none DPF version probably down to excessive heat. Apparently as the DPF becomes blocked this can cause back pressure causing the exhaust gasses to be blow back into the engine and so to contaminate the oil.
I think the best advice if you have a DPF would be to get it removed and have the car remapped, but that goes for all DPF's as far as I'm aware.

The engine doesn't seem to suffer infrequent oil changes and I would want it changed at least every 6000 miles or twice a year if you cover a low mileage.

The ridiculous sump design means there will always be an amount of old dirty oil left in the sump when changing the oil, I've read as much as 500ml can be left.

If you really want to go the extra mile removing the sump & fitting an alternative drain point could be an option worth looking into.


Cheers.