xantia head gasket

[jgra1]

hi Fangy glad pics are useful

First of all the four studs holding the mount on, are these the ones with the yellow arrows?


yes


Is the fixed tensioner the smooth wheel below the fuel pump sprocket?


yes


and to get the other tensioner off, is it the two bolts with the red arrows?


yes (one is a nut)


When I take the tensioner of is the bit with the green arrow on a spring? Will it pop out?

yes

(there is a method in BOL to stop this, but I didnt (still dont) know it.. I had 30 mins of hell trying to get back together on my own using a brake flare spanner - pic near this one in blog - but if there's a third hand its not so bad, someone will know the proper way of holding everythng together..


and one last thing, do the two bolts with the blue arrows need to come off? are they holding the fixed tensioner on?

yes but only if your replacing the fixed pulley...

[Old-Guy]

Fangy

Yellow arrows - mount fixing bolts.

Blue arrows - fixed 'tensioner' (it's really an idler) - undo the tensioner proper first.

Tensioner proper: un-tighten at red arrows, put short 3/8" extension in square hole, clamp mole-grips tightly on female end and rotate anti-clockwise to take up the tension against the spring loaded plunger (green arrow) while you twist the slack belt off the idler pulley. Still taking the pressure off the (top red arrow) pinch bolt, remove it. Ease off the tension with hand poised to catch plunger and spring! Remove nut (lower red arrow) to release tensioner assembly. N.B. The plunger tensions the belt correctly, the pinch bolt is intended to stops the belt gaining enough slack against the spring to jump a tooth.

Since you've gone to all this trouble; before re-assembly, inspect both tensioner and idler pulleys - they should rotate as smooth as silk with no trace of grease leakage. If in doubt, replace them. When was the cam belt changed? Opinions differ, but everyone agrees that Citroen's 72k is too long. 6 years and 50k is quite long enough (though our 1.9TD had got to 10 years and 67K on the original belt when I bought it). Also check the water pump because you'd have to do all this again to replace it.

End of tea-break (I'm supposed to decorating the house), I'll post my notes on getting the tensioner back in place at the week-end.

Good luck

Guy

[fangy]

Thanks for that, The picture made it a lot easier than trying to describe what I can see in the couple of inches between the inner wing and the engine. Not used to working on cars,motorbike are my thing. Like yourself I'll be doing this on my own so if someone could tell me the best way to deal with the tensioner It'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Fangy.

[CitroJim]

Like yourself I'll be doing this on my own so if someone could tell me the best way to deal with the tensioner It'd be greatly appreciated.

I've done several times now Fangy and never experienced a huge difficulty. there is a big, long spring under the tensioner piston and it can fly but my method, if I recall rightly, is to take the top bolt out (top red arrow), loosen the pivot nut (lower red arrow) and let it GENTLY pivot right away toward the mount and this will take the tension out of the spring in a controlled manner. You need to go gently and control it carefully. The tensiner will pivot right away and then you can catch the piston and spring (green arrow) as it falls out. Then, when all is out, you can slip off the pivot nut and pull the tensioner away. Reverse for reassembly. It helps if you have an assistant to just hold the piston and spring in place initially but you can do it solo with a bit of percywotsit.

That's my recollection. I've done it but never given it much concious thought. Xac, can you remember better how we did it on Cassy?

Note that the idler (blue arrows) will not be removable until the mount is off.

[MikeT]

As I had no idea how it all operated I just undid everything (but not the idler assembly) and at one point something went "twang" and it all came off in my hand. It's easier to study the mechanics of it (and work out how it needs to go back together) when the bits are off the car - although that photo is extremely helpful.

p.s. Where are you located if you don't mind me asking? I've got a bike you can work on if you're up on CDI's and electronic tachometers?

[Xaccers]

I seem to recall me using a long flat screwdriver to hold the piston back in place while the tensioner was fitted to it's stud.
Wasn't that difficult, just awkward to get to everything.

[fangy]

Thanks again people, well tomorrow should be the head off, just hope it's worth all the hassle and it runs again. I managed to pick up a spare cylinder head, is it right there's some kind of groove so you know when you reach the skimming limit?

I'm in Ayrshire MikeT, it's a bit of a distance from yourself.sorry.
Fangy.

[Old-Guy]

Fangy

My notes (on refitting tensioner) from doing the first cam belt change 2½ years ago: -

"When re-fitting the tensioner, the spring and plunger in the engine mounting bracket (that provide automatic tensioning) is a sod to re-fit. The trick is to fit the tensioner assembly first without the belt, lightly locked off in its most clockwise position to fit the belt.
The mounting bracket fits on a pin - make sure this is free of rust and lightly lubricated so that the bracket slides smoothly on it. The plunger and spring WILL fall on the floor several times - spread a large clean rag or dustsheet on the floor to save having to keep cleaning them. With the bracket partly fitted, push the plunger upwards from below with a hammer handle or similar while gently levering the bracket sideways into position with a piece of softwood about an inch thick. Haynes suggest making a tool but give no dimensions; in the time it would take to find the raw materials and make the tool, you can refit the tensioner this way three times over!"

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't fancy ill-treating their tools, I also noted: "To make a proper adjustment tool, the key dimensions are: face of the adjuster to a) the outer face of the camshaft sprocket (35mm) and to b) the face of the inner wheel-arch (60mm); adjuster thickness (5mm) – all approx."

I made these notes at the time against the day when I'd have to do the job again after a few years.

Hope this helps.

Guy

[CitroJim]

Hope this helps.

Guy

Yes it does

Excellent stuff Guy!

[Old-Guy]

Aaah the dangers of hasty cut-'n-paste: in the dimensions I omitted the most important of all: the square hole is actually 10mm!

Guy

[jgra1]

this was all I could do, and 30 mins of messing around I was gettting desperate

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2fj8MH_LeQ0/S ... reload.JPG

sorry I was miles off.. you can leave tensioner (and spring in place) and remove belt.. but if you are definately going to change tensioner, then the spring and cup will need refitting.. i.e. I was wrong to say you could somehow hold the spring in place, and remove tensioner

[Old-Guy]

jgra1

I like your solution to holding the tensioner plunger in place - very neat! I'll make a note for future reference - the 'retainer' looks like an old-fashion handbrake adjuster?

With reference to previous discussion of tools to rotate the tensioner against its spring. While looking for something else this morning I found myself with an M10 coach-bolt in my hand. The 10mm square under its head set me thinking:

I could take an M10 full-thread coachbolt, length depending on how I intended driving it (spanner or socket plus rachet), plus a plain washer and 3 nuts. Give it a reasonably accurate 10mm square head by sawing slices off the domed head using the flats of the square as guides, then clean up with a file to a tidy 10mm square. Slide washer over threads and lock in place with a nut to create a flange to stop the square going right through the adjuster. Cut bolt to length according to how I decide to drive it. Lock the remaining 2 nuts together to drive with whatever. Or get someone to weld nuts to bolt. However, I just happen to have an M10 threaded x 17mm hex spacer about 35mm long - no idea what it came from. That would be even better to drive on than a nut - and I could make the length adjustable. Had to reword that last sentence -

Guy

[jgra1]

thanks OG
It doesnt really hold it in place just made it easier for me to lever it when refitting..
Not sure what tool it was.. but it was all I had with an angle on , to push adjuster up enough with only one hand..

yep like the coachbolt idea



not sure if I wasnt being a weakling that day, seemed to make a meal of the silly job

[Old-Guy]

Engineering explanation why it should be replaced (less than £3) as Citroen recommend:

It's a high-tensile bolt - like 'stretch' cylinder-head bolts. It's torqued-up to a specified setting to set everything solidly in place. The further rotation through the specified angle stretches the bolt (within its elastic limit) a known distance, thus imposing a known pre-calculated preload.

From memory, the figures for the 1.9TD crankshaft bolt are 40lb/ft then plus 60º.

The force, often a shock load, required to undo bolts 'glued' in place with Loctite can over-stress bolts. If bolts are re-used, the carefully calculated preload will be all to cock. As a result, the weakened bolt may break, or come undone because it isn't tight enough.

The advice to replace (without the engineering reasoning) , came from a professional mechanic who has experience of re-used (perhaps more than once) bolts breaking and coming undone. Removing the stub is not easy, the auxiliary belt pulley flies off and is lost, and the same may happen to the timing pulley.

Guy

[citronut]

the tool i use for moveing/releasing the tensioner is a very short 3/8th drive extension (aprox inch to inch and an arf long)on a 3/8th drive ratchet, the 3/8th drive fits the square hole a treat

regards malcolm