Problem with wiring to Compressor

Unread post by **KennyW** » 22 Jun 2006, 12:17

Hi team,

I've removed brown temp plug and only left hand fan ran at full speed.

I then switched over green relays and the same again, left hand fan ran at full speed.

I have read the threads and believe it can only be 3 possible faults

1. change over relay knackered
2. loose or faulty connection on right hand fan or fan itself
3. the dreaded briton

Any thoughts or suggestions

Kenny

Unread post by **KennyW** » 22 Jun 2006, 12:22

Ooops I forgot,

I got some relays, 2 x 4 pin which have 12v , 40amp rating and 1 x 5 pin relay which says 12V ,2 x 15 amp

Can these be used or will require the same as per car

4 pin 25amp and 5 pin 25 amp no voltage rating marked on these.

Cheers

Kenny

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 22 Jun 2006, 14:34

Hi Kenny,

And congratulations for your perseverance.

It’s not the Bitron that’s faulty because if one fan spins at the high speed with the brown sensor disconnected, it means that the Bitron properly shorts to earth pins 2 of both the change-over and the so-called ‘right fan relay’, as seen from the driver’s seat.
These 2 relays are always operated simultaneously, to spin both fans at the high speed.
The left hand fan running at full speed, is that as seen from the front of the car ?
Both green relays are good because when swapping them, they each have operated the working left fan.
With the engine running and the air conditioning switched on, insert both green relays into their sockets just enough to make contact.
The one that clicks on when inserted is the ‘low speed’ relay.
If neither clicks on, the low speed relay has no feed, and fuse F5 of 5 Amps in the fuse box under the bonnet may be blown, or the feed wire from the fuse to the relay is open.
That’s the DaveW fault:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18965

Once there’s certainty about the operation of that relay, it will be easier to work out where to explore next.

The 4-pin relays of 12V and 40Amps will be more than good enough.
The 5-pin relay of 12V and 2 x 15Amps will be a bit weak because at the high speed it will carry the high speed current for one fan.
It will be ‘sufficient’ for quick tests though.
The car’s original relays with no voltage rating are sure to be for 12 Volts.

Best wishes, and I’m looking forward to the findings.

Terry.

Unread post by **KennyW** » 22 Jun 2006, 16:34

Hi Terry,

Tried the 5 pin new plug and the left hand fan started spinning slowly then died

.

May have blown fuse

Inserted old 5 pin relay and nothing happened when brown plug disconnected therefore I think i blew fuse

I followed your instructions and the left hand fan is the one if you were sitting in the car ie right hand fan when you are standing in front of car ,confused

Unable to access connecting plug/s for fans to test if they work will read up on thread and go for it tomorrow.

Cheers

Kenny

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 23 Jun 2006, 13:11

Hi Kenny,

When referring to fans and relays as ‘left’ and ‘right’, I will also use the diagram’s way, which is as seen from the driver’s seat.

If it went wrong when you put the new 5-pin relay in, it means that it is different to the original one.
If there is now a blown fuse since trying the new 5-pin relay, it could be F3 10 Amps in the fuse box under the dash.
That fuse feeds the ‘change-over’ and ‘right fan’ relay coils, and also the air conditioning pressure sensor switch on the dryer bottle.
The only other fuse involved is the large 40 Amp left fan fuse in the under-bonnet fuse box, or alongside it, depending on the model.
I doubt that it would have blown, because blowing a 40 Amp fuse causes plenty of sparking that you wouldn’t have missed.

Since only the left hand fan was spinning when you removed the brown plug yesterday morning, it means that the fault is in the right hand fan.
The Bitron isn’t faulty, because it operates the left fan with the same wire.
Neither are any of the green relays, because they both worked on the left fan when you swapped them.
It’s not the change-over relay, because it’s not used for the right fan when the brown plug is out for the high speed.
It’s not the right fan big 40 Amp fuse, because it’s not used at the low speed.
That only leaves the right fan motor, or its plug and socket, or its wiring.
There have been recent posts about giving the fan motors, and also the interior fan a few wallops to fix them:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19378

In this topic, DaveW explains about reaching the fan plugs/sockets:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19248

All the best,

Terry.

Unread post by **KennyW** » 23 Jun 2006, 21:54

Thanks for that Terry,

I've managed to extract the fans and going to test same by attaching appropriate wires to +ve and _ve battery terminals to see if they work

I am going to get hold of a multi meter to test for voltages.

What voltages can I expect for the fan plugs 12v for both or 12 v for left and 6 v for right or 12v for both.

I will check one of the threads for the numbers on the relay plugs for the voltages.

I must agree with other threads re access to the fans and the Briton, it took me approx 3 hrs to prepare for this position.

Will post results for other peoples information.Unfortunately I don't have my camera to take photos but I will see what I can do.

Cheers

Kenny

Unread post by **alan s** » 23 Jun 2006, 22:15

Just bought another car, another VSX with air and it had the same problem; one fan going constantly but at a strange speed. It was somewhere between fast and slow.
Checked the relays etc, then disconnected the bitron at which point the fan stopped!!

Tracing wires led to us finding someone had managed to pull the wires off the plug to the engine temperature sensor so anyones guess how long it had run with the fans full on.
Removed fans and stripped down and discovered the carbon brushes worn and the commutator scored, so will be doing a rebuild possibly today after getting a new set of brushes and bearings just to be on the safe side and will skim off the commutator in the lathe.
Info for doing that is here if it's any help.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=10752

Won't be able to test it for a few days as I have the injectors out of the car awaiting parts; that's another story.

Alan S

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 24 Jun 2006, 12:24

Hi Kenny,

Both fans run on 12 Volts at the high speed.
At the low speed, they both run on 6V.
Simplest would be to get or make a test lamp with a 12V car lamp, socket and wires.
The test lamp is very good to see if the 12V can supply current, because the meter can show 12V from leakages and strays that cannot supply current.
While the fans are out, if one is faulty, Alan’s way is very certain to fix it cheaply, and for good, while a replacement from a wreck may be doubtful.

Enjoy a good fiddle with that.

And Hi Alan,

And how did you manage to get to the temperature sensors at the back of the thermostat housing ?
I can’t see or even reach them through the top on the 2.0i 8V engine.
I have read a story full of German swear words

on a German forum about removing the air intake pipe to get to it.
Or did you get to them from underneath ?

Regards,
Terry.

Unread post by **alan s** » 24 Jun 2006, 13:22

I had a head off a Pug Mi16and had a brown plug I forgot to replace which soon reminded me when I turned the key on.
When I found this off, I grabbed a mirror attached to a flexible arm and with a spotlight shining into the general area, I found the plug socket and slid my arm in under the thermo housing and pushed it home.
Trick was to have the spring clip partway out of its socket and hold with a finger until it was started and push it into the socket and then push the clip in. (Whilst reciting the Lords Prayer and keeping the eyes shut all at the same time.)

Alan S

Unread post by **KennyW** » 24 Jun 2006, 23:00

Hi Terry and AlanS,

Alan read your thread and will probaly follow your lead.

Question I tested my circuit in the off position and established the following:

In my Xantia the bottom green relay socket I believe is the left hand fan relay.
My reasons area as follows when using a bulb tester both the pin no's 3 and 1 illuminated the bulb strongly and 2 and 5 didn't.
No 5 is the feed for the left hand fan.(as per peugot logic diagrams)
When I tested the the other green relay socket no illumination from any contact.
Looking at the Peugeot logic diagram I think the the right hand fan relay also as a residual supply which should illuminate the bulb.
I think this is the fuse in the engine bay F5 - 5amp which appeared OK but not checked with meter, will replace same to see if will change things.
I also cleaned the earths beside battery in engine bay.
Test right hand fan by passing 12v and it worked but as AlanS said it may work with 12v but not with 6v because of worn brushes.
One final point how easy is it to check fan motors.

Cheers

Kenny

Unread post by **alan s** » 25 Jun 2006, 00:47

The fans basically "plug in" to the frame using a couple of substantial spade terminals.
We just ran a couple of wires from the battery to each of the terminals using alligator clips after we removed the fans from the car. If you put the wires on the wong way, no sweat, they just spin backwards.
I doubt the use of a meter will show much, we just stripped the back end off the motors which then gives you access to the brushes.
These motors have more torque than you might imagine with the need to have someone hold it tightly before power is attached; they twist so hard they feel like they can almost snap your wrist.

Alan S

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 25 Jun 2006, 13:00

Hi again Kenny,

Yes, the bottom green relay is the left fan relay because it has supply to pins 1 & 3 with the key out.
The voltage on pin 1 is to supply the relay coil, and comes from fuse F5 - 5Amps under the bonnet, or fuse F7 under the dash depending on the model, so the fuse is good.
Pin 3 is fed from fuse F33 on the Peugeot map, one of the two large 40 Amp fuses under the bonnet.
Pin 2 goes to the Bitron to energise the relay coil, and has nothing on it with the key out on a cold engine.
Pin 5 goes to the right fan relay for low speed operation, and has nothing on it because the fans are meant to be stopped in this situation.
No illumination on any pin of the other green relay means that the other large 40A fuse, F34 is open, because that fuse should supply pin 3 of the right fan relay.
Pin 1 of the right fan relay should have nothing on it with the key out because it’s switched with the ignition key through fuse F3 under the dash.
Pin 2 should have nothing because it goes to the Bitron for high speed operation only.
Pin 5 should have nothing because it goes to the right fan, which is not supplied when the fans are not meant to spin.
This photo shows the large fuses in the red square, as they are on my car, but there are different arrangements.
If different, follow the two thick black wires from the triangle of relays back up to find the fuses.

To test the fans for their low speed ability, put battery positive to one pin of the first fan, and the second pin of the first fan to the first pin of the second fan.
The second pin of the second fan goes to earth.
The fans are 'in series' like that, and should spin at the low speed.
The polarity of the pins is not important when testing, as per Alan’s post.

Best wishes.
Terry.

Unread post by **KennyW** » 25 Jun 2006, 18:22

Hi Terry and AlanS,

I think I've got it sussed

Everybody has been asking about the wiring diagrams in the BOL and I believe the fuse reffered to as BMF are the Big Main Fuses in the engine compartment fuse box. 8)

Moving on swiftly

I have one 40amp fused shot the bolt which I will replace tomorrow so I'm stiffled at the moment

Will see what happens tomorrow but it's looking hopeful

Cheers

Kenny

P.S. Unfortunately my daughter's boyfriend has digital camera so cannot post any pics for anybody doing the job in the future.

Clogzz · Unread post by **Clogzz** » 26 Jun 2006, 13:14

Hi Kenny,

BOL lists BMF1 & BMF2 as ‘Max.-fuse box’, the place where the big main fuses live, unlike in my car, where they live just outside of it.

Well done, you’ve almost made it.

Regards,
Terry.

Unread post by **KennyW** » 26 Jun 2006, 15:39

Thanks Terry and AlanS for your help,

The problem appears to be the change=over relay , fitted new fuse then made acouple of wire loops and connect pins 3 and 5 on left fan rely connector and pins no 3 and 4 on change over relay connector and bngo both fans ran at low speed.

Prior to that ,last night I stripped down the earth connections with in the engine department and cleaned same.

But the bad news is I've since tried to start car and she is saying no chance totally puzzled

I was think of writing up my experiences and posting same, any thoughts.

Cheers
Kenny W.