Manual vs. Automatic - The debate

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 05 Apr 2005, 23:41

My first car was a Daimler DB18 1930 something, bought at Sandford auctions for £150 in 1960ish, it had a wilson pre selector gear box.
As I recall, the box worked by each gear being in a row and each had a brake like clamp that locked onto it preventing its rotation when you pressed the pedal and 'selected' that particular gear..
Lovely ole car, 0 to 60 in 10 mins, and 3 miles to stop from almost any speed! cable operated drum brakes were NOT very good!! lol... [8)] [:D]
I haven't driven any of the new semi auto's yet and look forward to that, it sounds the logical way to go.

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fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 06 Apr 2005, 04:04

Personally I was very glad of having a manual gearbox a few years ago in my LandRover FC. Whilst driving round a roundabout, there was an ENOURMOUS bang from the drivetrain, and I lost drive. On experimenting with the gears, 1st was completely useless, 2nd made an odd noise, 3rd would work a tiny tiny bit, and then make loud banging noises, but 4th was fine. My conclusion was that the layshaft had failed. Luckily, being a landrover, and having 3 independent manual gearboxes (transfer, main and overdrive) it was possible to drive home using lowbox-4th to pull away, then a calculated (no synchromesh) change into highbox-4th, and then overdrive-4th as normal. Made it 30 miles home like that. On stripping the box, it was aparent that one of the rolling members had jammed up and ridden up onto the next one in a bearing, and locked the layshaft solid. The layshaft had then sheared in half (it's over one-and-a-half inches in diameter!!), and the gearcasing had split. A scrap gearbox for £5 gave me the replacement shaft and gearcase, and a new bearing was £8. Oh, and half a day's work to rebuild.
Had this same bearing failure occured in an auto box or a modern complex semi-auto it would not only have left me stranded, but would also have been ultra expensive to repair (like a new gearbox).

Forth · Unread post by **Forth** » 06 Apr 2005, 04:22

"The bit I found most objectionable with the daf belt transmission was the sheer volume and quality (or lack of it)of the noise it made."
Thought my Daf 44 was reasonably quiet compared to other cars; twin-belt variomatic was nice to drive, and loved the fact that even if one belt snapped you could still drive home from the other end of the country on the remaining one... bummer the time both went though....
Btw, ever hear a 44 with its exhaust pipe and resonator missing from the front box back? Made big motorbikes sound rather feeble. Scary like a vole doing lion impersonations, or a low-flying Starfighter I recall from an airshow many years ago (however, it's not the Daf that got itself labelled the "flying coffin").

leonard1 · Unread post by **leonard1** » 06 Apr 2005, 13:50

My pensioner Dad has a Volvo estate auto and I have to admit to enjoy driving it. However the amount he has had to pay out at the service for work to be done on it ...

kiwichas · Unread post by **kiwichas** » 06 Apr 2005, 14:11

I find in practice the auto BX 19tri is pretty quick, you have to be a little brutal to extract the same performance from a manual BX, it also suits the rathr fluid laid-back nature of the car, good in traffic jams.

Unread post by **Thunderbird** » 06 Apr 2005, 14:47

That's an important point. Common driver won't extract the full potential of a manual gearbox and would drive much quicker with an auto gearbox, even if the car had less power.

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 06 Apr 2005, 15:15

Perhaps I'm not a common driver but I do know how to extract the full potential of the manual gearbox.
If I want to be economical with fuel I can stick it in top gear and press the accelarator down without it downshifting to a less economical gear (I get rather better economy than the 40mpg combined figure for my car). If I want performance I know where peak power and peak torque are and I know when to shift for optimal accelaration. I'm young and fit and can change gear whilst cornering with little effort, the only benefits an auto would bring would be smoothness perhaps and lazyness.
Autoboxes don't stand up to abuse much, you don't get away with not changing the oil never mind not checking the level where as manual boxes are "sealed for life". If you treat an autobox as "sealed for life" you'll find that it is in fact "sealed for life" but its life is not a very long one.

Unread post by **Thunderbird** » 06 Apr 2005, 15:31

I am not a common driver either, but I suspect that, as the years pass by, I will start becoming one... [8D]
I wouldn't classify it as lazzyness, as the driver gets a little more freedom which he can use to concentrate on other aspects of the driving, or talk to his wife, read the newspaper... [;)]

kiwichas · Unread post by **kiwichas** » 07 Apr 2005, 04:02

Bet my autobox will last longer than Kowalski's clutch, particularly if he tries to keep up with me...also see "Honest John" on manual Xantia HDI boxes if you want toget depressed.Top gear in auto TRI very tall giving effortless open road work and economy

Unread post by **Thunderbird** » 07 Apr 2005, 04:46

hello... [8D]
My Xantia HDi manual gearbox seems to be rather solid. What surprises should I be expecting?...
Even without surprises, I expect this to be my last manual box.
One vote for automatic gearboxes! (I have already started to change into a common (calm) driver...)

Panjandrum · Unread post by **Panjandrum** » 07 Apr 2005, 05:31

Always go for auto when hiring a car in strange places - especially if they drive on the wrong side. (1) It makes for safer and less stressful driving. (2) It often ends up as a free upgrade to a better car (oops, keep that bit quiet).
Based on experience with (1) we now also own an auto Micra. This is a joy to drive. The only difficulty I have is the loss of fine control in slow manoeuvring if it involves going up and down kerbs.

kiwichas · Unread post by **kiwichas** » 07 Apr 2005, 05:39

From Honest John website
What's Good
Good looking, 'different' hatchbacks and estates with excellent front-end grip, safe handling, fine ride quality out of town plus the ability to raise themselves on their suspension to clear obstacles and to sink down to the ground if required. Good rear legroom. Length 14' 7", width 5' 9", weight from 1,170kg. Estates have three lap/diagonal rear belts. Suspension never goes baggy. Suspension spheres quick, easy and cheap to replace. 112bhp 16 valve 1.8 and 135bhp 2.0 litre engines from N reg on quite sporty but can use a bit of oil in valve stem lubrication. 150bhp turbocharged 8v Activa had fantastic handling and roadholding. 194bhp 3.0 V6 was a bit overkill for this market. Facelift Feb '98 with 3-piece bumpers. Turbo-diesel automatic from Spring '98 a good cruiser. New HDI diesel engine from October 1998 best fuel miser in-CLASS. 12-year body warranty from September 1999. Cheap cars now.
Xantia (1993 to 2000)
What's Bad
Hydraulic pumps can still go. ABS computers fail. Parts of more complex VSX and Activa suspension can stick. Average performance in NCAP crash tests. TD auto a bit high geared for town work (lingers in 2nd or 3rd). Clutch cable connector prone to breaking at the pedal end and, it's a long, tedious and expensive job to put right. Hatchbacks of Xantia estates can leak through wiper spindle seal. Very heavy depreciation and difficult to sell. Flood water ingress to the gearbox is a problem, causing the box to seize. Faulty ABS sensors can lead to short front brake disc life. Cat heat shield can trap moisture which can lead to rust on a car driven short distances from cold. Spate of conrod failures on 1997 -1998 R and S reg 1.9 XUTD diesels: too many to attribute merely to running with low oil levels. Seems only to affect cars built from April 1997 with DHY (not DHX) serial number engines. Non availability of some obscure parts, such as bottom radiator hoses for 2.1TD. On HDIs, rubber cushioned timing belt pulley needs replacing at same time as timing belt (60k - 70k miles) otherwise can separate. 17th from bottom for reliabilty in Auto Express 2002 reader survey of 100 models. On very early Xantias, front suspension strut tops can pop through the top mountings. Citroens generally had average warranty repair costs in 2003 Warranty Direct Reliability index (index 99.84 v/s lowest 31.93). Link:- www.reliabilityindex.co.uk 1995-1997 petrols rated average for breakdownd and faults, poor for problems; 1995-1997 diesels rated average for breakdowns, poor for problems and faults; 1998-2000 diesels rated average for breakdowns and problems, poor for faults in 2003 Which surve

Unread post by **Thunderbird** » 07 Apr 2005, 05:51

Most of these problems are solved on Xantia mk2! [^]
The manual gearbox of my Xantia HDi is very smooth and precise.
Better than this only an automatic gearbox! [;)]

kiwichas · Unread post by **kiwichas** » 07 Apr 2005, 06:00

Good to hear, as I have a deep seated, possibly irrational, conviction that I should get an HDI...must go for a drive in one.

kiwichas · Unread post by **kiwichas** » 07 Apr 2005, 10:47

What to Watch Out For
LX non-ABS models are the best used buy because there's less to go wrong. ABS computers are a common problem. Check spare wheel is in its underboot cradle and not nicked. Look for smoke from diesels - may be curable with a dose of injector cleaner and a new air filter. 1.6s likely to wear out first. If fitted with aircon, make sure it blows cold. If 2.0 litre petrol engine knocks, don't buy the car (see XM for reason). EU wide problem with clutch of HDIs: release bearings are failing on average at 30K miles and the hydraulic actuators at approx 70K miles. Both cause significant damage (£700 - £1000) to repair. Basically, the clutch assembly "blows-up", though not the actual clutch disc, which can have as little as 20% wear. Strut top bearings can fail and break free. Check by jacking the car up and pulling. Recall in New Zealand for this reason. Jump starting diesels incorrectly can knock out the rev counter. Cure is to remove dash and tip upside down to relocate rev counter needle.
Recalls, forgot to add this
1994 (May 1993-Oct 1994): Recall for parking brake modification to force drivers to apply it properly. 2001 (May 1993 - August 1994): Recall od Xantias with electric sunroofs because electrics can short out leading to total failure of all electrics, stopping the car. Late 2001: PSA TSB issued to check all common-rail to injector unions on HDIs for leaks. 5/11/2001: 4134 Xantia 1.8i 16vs built 1/1/1995 to 31/12/96 recalled because timing belt may fail before 72,000 miles. Belt to be replaced