Engine wont turn

oilyspanner · Unread post by **oilyspanner** » 01 Apr 2004, 06:37

Agreed with Dave Burns the thing didnt have the momentum, read my previous.
Stewart

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 01 Apr 2004, 14:44

Vanny, This is a standard belt off, time up and belt on job. Set the cam peg up first and just loosen the injectors off a bit to release some compression. Turn the crank to tdc and if it locks up before you get the pin in, turn the crank backwards 1 turn to tdc. Cam and crank are now in phase. get the pump timing pin in and put the belt on. Tuen it all over by hand a few times, tighten the injectors and fire it up.

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 01 Apr 2004, 16:12

what, ten minute job

Thanks folks, im hoping that i can get it done today, wish me luck im gonna need it. At least ive stopped crying like a baby now!

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 01 Apr 2004, 16:49

Good luck Vanny, sounds as though you are almost there. Is this the demon 1900 tdbx that you are unleashing on an unsuspecting world?

noz · Unread post by **noz** » 01 Apr 2004, 18:28

Vanny,
If the diagnosis above gets you down to the option of simply timing then the job's quite easy:
Rotate the crank until the pistons are all level in the middle of the bores. This allows you to turn the cam through 360 degrees at will.
Set the cam to the correct position and put in the peg.
Set the pump to the correct position and put in the peg.
Turn the crank to the correct position and fit the peg. Depending on the crank/cam relative positions to start with you may have to turn the crank anti or clockwise. Can't tell from here.
Once all three are pegged, fit the belt in the usual manner.
If it helps, I'm almost finished the Xantia factory manual with the exception of the electrics. The engine section is all finished. If you tell me the engine code and your e-mail address, I'll send you the relevant section in .pdf on how to fit the belt and set the timing.
cheers
noz[8D]

reblack68 · Unread post by **reblack68** » 03 Apr 2004, 16:04

Any news?

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 04 Apr 2004, 08:07

Well its now a case of the good, the bad and the down right ugly!
At 10pm this evening I finally had the courage to take the rocker cover and crank shaft off the engine (while in situe), and it doesn¡¦t look good!
The very first valve (from the right looking into the bay, I think it¡¦s the No1 intake?) is stuck. It will not raise (and the reason I cant get the cam to get to the timing point), and is stuck presumably fully open. I assume therefore that the little bugger is bent, and thus will have to be replaced.
As I see it im gonna have to take the head off just to get the valve out, at which point im gonna need a full head set (gasket, bolts etc), new valve and guides and springs. Am I going to need to replace all the valves, the matching set of can I get away with just the one? The rest seem free to move, and without any problems.
What is the worst case scenario? If I¡¦ve managed to bend the valve, is it likely that there is damage to the head, piston or crank?
Im at the end of all my money reserves, I¡¦ve been spending so long with the car instead of being at work im a bit stuffed for any viable income. Im assuming that I will be able to do the work, but this has put a very dark cloud over the whole stupid affair, really wishing I had stuck with the trusty old tank of a 19rd now.
Looking at the sales centre of the world (Ebay) I might as well go and get a 2.5td XM now and have done with it, would make the insurance cheaper by any rate!
If im gonna be better replacing the engine then the cars off to the scrap man in the sky! It¡¦s already out stayed its welcome in the garage, and I cant afford to be without a car any longer. Getting a cheap run about for a few months is also NOT a viable option so I better pray for the best!
I swear this is the most French car I have ever worked on! Gonna have to get a watershed on the garage the amount of swearing that goes on ƒ¼ Why couldn¡¦t I stick with a nasty orrible ford or some thing easier to fix!

oilyspanner · Unread post by **oilyspanner** » 04 Apr 2004, 15:10

Have you backed the crank away from this stuck valve Vanny? and then bounced it with the universal hammer? or levered ot to see if it moves? it they only bend when the belt snaps at some rpms, it may be stuck.
Lots of Luck
Stewart

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 06 Apr 2004, 16:38

Vanny! Do not panic! Valves bend in pairs. I'm 99% certain All that has happened is that the valve has stuck open whilst the engine was stored. Think about it, Not turned over, one cylinder will be on the inlet stroke with the valve open.The valve stem only needs to pick up a bit of condensation to rust solid until encouraged to move. BUT it will need to be pushed down to start with because that is the clean part of the stem. the rust will then be wiped off.
What you need though is a cure. Take a hardwood rod and a hammer, Squirt a little wd down the inlet port, (use a bit of pipe to get it just into the right place), turn the engine back 30 degrees or so to get some piston clearance and wallop the tappet through the wooden rod until something moves. Chances are good to very good that it will spring back in two or three hits, honest!
Keeping my fingers crossed.

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 06 Apr 2004, 23:27

Tried that Tom, it failed

Gave it a good whallop and nothing. Then again it is wedged OPEN! its the inlet valve on the No. 1 cylinder. So Yesterday was a head off job, its now off and sitting in my bedroom! After getting it off i pushed it about a bit (pushing it from the bottom) and it went but was very very stiff! Im assuming now its bent as after up and down a few times made no difference!
Oh well, i've now done the first ever head off on a engine (well discounting a VW air cooled!)!
Very interesting!
Get to take it to bits now so wish me luck!

edd001 · Unread post by **edd001** » 07 Apr 2004, 01:51

just to let you know that valves do not always bend in pairs and you can replace the one that is bent(if it is bent) but you will have to ground it in the old seat of the head. also if you do go down that road have a look at the piston for any signs of piston slap.

reblack68 · Unread post by **reblack68** » 07 Apr 2004, 02:59

I wouldn't go replacing too many bits, It's perfectly acceptable to replace only one valve and/or guide/spring/collet. I'd ask one of the nice people here to post me a used valve and perhaps a loan of a selection of shims and see where that gets you. I'm sure several members have dismembered heads kicking around.
You should really grind the rest of the valves in and check the clearances- which will improve the engine's running anyway. When you try and grind the valves you'll soon see if any more are bent because they won't grind evenly all the way round. It's possible the stuck valve has collet or spring trouble, again I imagine somebody could send you the bits to deal with that.
I think the valve has failed to close for some reason and been clouted by the piston when you tried to start.

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 07 Apr 2004, 03:59

edd01 - can you explain what piston slap is? Looking at the crown of the piston there has deffinatley been contact of the valve on the head (theres an even ring where some of the cokeing on the top of the piston has been rubbed off. Exactly how does one 'grind in' a new vlave? I've never done any engine work before!
reblack - how will i know if the guide/spring/collet needs replacing?
Fortunatley im not going at this blind, as i have a learned friend who does know what there doing with engine inards and he is going to do pretty much all the work! Is there anything that i need to get a specialist to do?
Im going to be putting in a new gasket, and the wonderfull book of lies keeps going on about choosing the correct gasket based on notches or something. Surely if i buy a gasket for the engine from GSF then its the right one and will fit?
If nothing else then i now understand what so many of these terms mean, the difference between the cam and crank, what a tappet is and what the shims are and why they are so important to the clearances. Perhaps things i could have learned from a book, but much easier if you can see the thing in front of you!

reblack68 · Unread post by **reblack68** » 07 Apr 2004, 04:22

The gasket must be chosen according to the protrusion of the pistons above the block. This varies from engine to engine, you'll find that GSF list a selection of head gaskets for your engine.
It'll be apparent pretty quickly if something needs replaced, if you put a new valve in and it still doesn't move freely the guide is probably cream crackered- a machine shop job. If the spring or collets are damaged you'll be able to see.
To grind in a valve you put abrasive paste on the seating face and grind it into the head using a stick with a sucker on the end. That's one of the easiest bits of the whole operation.
Have fun.

acrowot · Unread post by **acrowot** » 07 Apr 2004, 04:49

Vanny
Redblack68 is correct when he says that the piston protrusion determines the thickness of the head gasket ( not wether the head is skimmed or not). If you still have the old gasket count the notches on that (if they are on it) and get a gasket with the same number of notches on it. Haynes does detail the proceedure for testing the piston protrusion with a Dial Test Gauge, and gives a table for deciding on the gasket thickness. but if you can count the notches on the old one it is easier.