[C5 Mk3] Various fault codes and check engine fault

[Marius]

I'm trying to find out which of the faults I mentioned at the beginning is responsible for the issues I've got with the car (Check engine light, lack of power, lingering when accelerating, no cruise control).

According to fault table for DW10BTED4 engine only fault P1447 would cause the above.
See below:

Down-grade modes if fault present - The ECU:
*Limits the flow of fuel
*Deactivates the cruise control
*Limits the vehicle speed until the next time the ignition is switched on
*The activation of the regeneration of the particle emission filter

Switching on of the warning light and/or warning message:
*Warning lamp MIL

Main customer complaints likely:
*Engine hesitating, cutting out
*Lack of power
*Noise
*Starting problem


And now possible Suspect areas:
*Pneumatic meter of the turbo air cooler by-pass - ???
*Particle filter
*Electrical harness
*Connections
*Particle filter differential pressure sensor - I've checked and looked OK
*Particle filter upstream temperature sensor
*catalytic converter - hope not
*Soft pouch of the additive reservoir
*Additive pump
*Anti-return valve (Between the additive pipe and the reservoir)
*Customer making very short journeys
*Lack of additive in the reservoir - topped up last year

I know, I know, only Lexia will draw the full picture.
But don't have one so trying deductive approach.

[vborovic]

I'm gonna go ahead with the DPF replacement. Will see if this helps.
My question is do I need to re-program the ECU?

And now possible Suspect areas:
*Pneumatic meter of the turbo air cooler by-pass - ???
*Particle filter
*Electrical harness
*Connections
*Particle filter differential pressure sensor - I've checked and looked OK
*Particle filter upstream temperature sensor
*catalytic converter - hope not
*Soft pouch of the additive reservoir
*Additive pump
*Anti-return valve (Between the additive pipe and the reservoir)
*Customer making very short journeys
*Lack of additive in the reservoir - topped up last year

So, Mr. Watson ... I see your deduction is fully working .. usually one would have less and less possibilities by the end of the day, not the other way around ...

[Marius]

Yes indeed, there's several possibilities .
So if I plugged it in to Lexia it would told me exactly which of the above has failed, wouldn't it?

[Oliver53]

Yes indeed, there's several possibilities .
So if I plugged it in to Lexia it would told me exactly which of the above has failed, wouldn't it?

I don't think that would be the case. Lexia allows you to read the measurements but you still need to establish the problem path with logical thinking, based on your knowledge of the engine management system. Lexia is a kind of must have to solve many of the electronics system problems but it is not a magic thing. Be prepared and good luck.

[vborovic]

That's the basic idea ... it is not 100% accurate (and you need to know your way around its features), but it can point you in the right direction faster and without touching some "usual suspects", saving you time and energy (and money) to fix what actually needs fixing ... and this is THE tool which the usual PSA garages fix cars with nowadays

[Sloppysod]

Hi Marius - I am a bit of a cheap skate, always look for the cheapest and easiest option first, and if this was my car I would;

++ Choose a nice Album and put it on you radio.
++ Then go on a nice steady dive.

As page 33 of the owners manual

" - Particle filter In addition to the catalytic converter, this filter contributes actively to the preserving of air quality, by collecting the polluting particles that have not been burnt off. Black exhaust fumes are thus eliminated. Clogging of the particle filter Clogging is caused by the particle filter starting to be saturated (owing to exceptionally long periods spent driving in urban conditions : low speeds, traffic jams, etc.). In order to regenerate the filter you are advised to drive as soon as possible, when traffic conditions allow, at a speed of 60 km/h (approx. 37 mph) or more for at least 5 minutes. If the problem persists....." & "
Note: If the vehicle has been running for long periods at very low speeds or at idle, vapour emissions may be seen coming from the exhaust under acceleration. These have no consequences for the running of the vehicle or for the environment"

http://info.citroen.co.uk/assets/micros ... ndbook.pdf
.
If you still have a problem then start digging further, yes a Lexia would be a good investment if you plan on keep driving Citroen or Peugeot cars, however, if the problem goes and comes back then you may have found the issue.

I had a Mk 1 2.2hdi auto, over 141,000 miles when I sold it, original DPF, went into limp mode a number of times but sorted itself out with the method above.

if you do not want to buy one see f someone close will help, I think I can safely say we all would welcome the practice!!

[Zelandeth]

Let's not forget that DPFs can often be recovered by a physical cleaning (oven cleaner and attacking with a pressure washer) if they are too clogged.

We successfully did this on a VW Passat that was so choked that it wouldn't even start until we removed the exhaust downpipe. That was two years ago and the cleaned DPF is still going strong. The amount of crud that comes out is astonishing!

That costs only a couple of quid to do (cost of the cleaner), so has to be worth a shot before ordering a new one I'd say.

...you'll still need a Lexia to clear the fault though I think.

[Marius]

This weekend I'm planing to:
1. Take out DPF and examine it. I may decide to flush it with water or blow it through with air. I bought a new one anyway for £140 (with clamp, bolts and gasket) so if I my old one is really clogged I'm gonna put a new one. If not and flushing helps I can always return it (I hope).
2. Take out the EGR and clean it. Looking in the manual seems to be a simple job but could be otherwise because of its location. Anyone has any experience with it? Couldn't find a new gasket set for it however so I'm gonna have to put the old ones back which is not ideal.
3. Then I'll try to erase all the fault codes using my super professional smartphone application and fingers crossed this should solve the issue. I'm bit optimistic here but hopefully all this should help.

I'll keep you posted of course.

[Stickyfinger]

The only advice I would give is don't mess with a Citroen electric brain....best of luck with the phone

[vborovic]

3. Then I'll try to erase all the fault codes using my super professional smartphone application.

You can forget about ALL fault codes right here ... anything other than Lexia doesn't know how to communicate with individual computers of a PSA car, meaning you'll only get the BSI's stored errors displayed (and possibly cleared) ... if an error is a recurring one, it will pop up once again ... at the same time you'll still possibly have 2-3 errors (i.e. gearbox, suspension, telematics, ...), which you won't know about and won't be able to clear/solve whatever ...

[Sloppysod]

Cleaning of DPF's used to be a standard service procedure for Citroens, but it was dropped in the early years of the Mk1 C5. I believe this was for Environmental reasons. That said if you do - DO NOT GET CAUGHT letting what ever cleaner and fluids enter the water table otherwise this could lead to a heavy fine or even a small stay in one of the UK's hostels run by the government!!!

This is for those of us in the UK, not sure about other countries.

[Marius]

Let's not forget that DPFs can often be recovered by a physical cleaning (oven cleaner and attacking with a pressure washer) if they are too clogged.

This has slipped out of my attention.
Zelandeth, can you (or anybody) say bit more about this? How many cans, for how long, etc.?

[Zelandeth]

In our case we didn't use any cleaner, just blasting it out (backwards) with the pressure washer worked perfectly. The oven cleaner was something I'd read about and we were going to use as a backup plan - as it was we didn't need it.

[Marius]

OK, I've got some updates as promised.

In regard to my DPF filter; I managed to take it out last Friday. It wasn't easy though. I treated all the nuts with a rust dissolvent so that helped I guess. Access to the two bottom mounting bolts is OK so didn't have any issues with them. Them two nuts removed quite easily but one bolt was so seized that it snapped when I was trying to loosen it. Gentle persuasion with a hammer helped . Two other bolts on the top were in much better condition but not easily accessible however. Ratchet extension and flexible attachment is a must. But the most issues I had was with the nut attaching the pressure pipe to DPF. It was badly seized but not corroded. Additional spraying didn't help much so I heated it with the fire torch. Several attempts and eventually got it loosen. I couldn't undo the clamp nut though so just cut the bolt with angle grinder. I had a spare one so didn't bother.
I got the filter out so decided to flush it with some water. I attached a water hose to the filter outlet and I could see that the majority of the filter channels were blocked completely as the water was barely dripping. There was a fair water pressure coming out around the centre of the filter. And that was it. I could see some soot coming out as well as some ash flushed from the filter channels. I used a jet washer as well but didn't help much. Putting new filter on wasn't too hard though. Engine fired on and the fault was still present and I couldn't erase it with my app. It wasn't suprise to me as the manual says that you have re-enter the new pressure values into the ECU.
Next day I tackled my EGR. I followed the instructions from the manual. Managed to undo all the bolts and nuts just to find out that there's one more bolt at the bottom of the valve which wasn't accessible from the top (bolt no. 12 on the manual for DW10BTED4 engine). So I put all the bits on just to fire the engine on, raise it and put the car on the ramps. Quick look, bolt located, ratchet, extension and bolt done . Put the car back on the ground and disassembling again . 30 mins later I had the EGR out. Quick examination and it was clear that the powerlatch is jammed half way through. I couldn't even force it to move. It was completely covered with a tar! I've used almost a whole can of EGR / Carburettor cleaner but I couldn't release the powerlatch. Kept jamming half way through. It helped with the tar removal though. Eventually got it unblocked using...WD40 . I sprayed it additionally with an oven cleaner, cleaned it with a scotch brite and cloth. Eventually the powerlatch started running smoothly without any hesitation. So fixed it back, started the engine several times and...the faults were still present . So left the car yesterday in my local garage and got it back clean and smooth and without the check engine fault .

Summary of the costs:
DPF - £140 with gasket, bolts and clamp
Fault codes clearance and new DPF parameter re-write - £60
EGR cleaner - £5
Oven cleaner - £1

Remarks:
1. There's no need for taking off the air duct (no. 5 on the manual) in order to take out the EGR. I couldn't even find where this pipe is attached to.
2. Before you start disassembling EGR from the top you need to check and remove the additional bolt which is accessible from the beneath of the vehicle. This could only apply to C5 model though.
3. During DPF regeneration process only soot can be removed/burnt from it. The ash will still be present in the filter clogging it. The only way to remove the ash is to take the filter out and flush it under greater pressure (but not a jet washer pressure).
4. Guys in my local garage don't have Lexia but even though they managed to put new values in and re-set the ECU so Lexia is not the only magic tool available
5. Car now runs like a new and I can feel all the horses under the bonnet as never before

Apologies for bit long-ish post but hopefully this could help others with similar issues.

Some pictures here:

https://goo.gl/photos/cthaXgDJERTPAFsCA

[Sloppysod]

OK, I've got some updates as .................Apologies for bit long-ish post but hopefully this could help others with similar issues.

Don't be sorry about the long post, very informative & helpful

Thanks you.