Clio - it's raining in!

[Mick F]

Yes, Minis.
Happy days!

There are two things that have diving me mad over this problem.

Firstly, the problem itself of course.
Secondly, the complete lack of information about it. I bought a Haynes Manual quite a few years ago for the Clio, and to be honest, it's rubbish.

Having had many many cars over the years - Im 60 now and have owned cars since I passed my test aged 18 - and had many a Haynes Manual: Triumph Herald, Hillman Minx, Mini, Mini and Mini, Peugeot 205 ............ to name a few, and they were all excellent. The latest versions of Haynes Manuals are cheap and nasty, have poor photographs, lack in-depth information, and are not really aimed at a knowledgeable DIY mechanic. (or at least the ones I've seen recently are like that)

This is just me ranting!
Sorry!

The drainage isn't mentioned anywhere that I could find in the manual, and when our Clio was in for a service locally, they had no idea where the drains were. It has taken me six months (of wet carpets) to get to the bottom of this, so what chance has someone got who isn't a "knowledgeable mechanic"?

All I need now is a good thunderstorm to absolutely prove I've fixed it.

Thanks SO much for the advice re ball joint splitter. I was thinking of having to buy a bearing puller.

Regards,
Mick.

[Fake Concern]

Wow, that's quite a list of cars, I'm nearly as old, but keep most cars for ages so haven't had that many. I disagree about the Haynes manuals, though, they've always been rubbish! I remember helping my dad put a recon (gold seal, only the best!) gearbox in a Marina (I know) & when I dropped the old one off at BL dealer, the chap showed me that we had left 3 locating springs on the old one & they should have been swopped over. The Haynes didn't even mention them! Bring on another box out session next evening! However the new ones are even worse! Have to say that various forums have really saved me from great expense as there are so many people willing to help.
I hope the next downpour proves you are fixed, but from your descripton I'm sure it must be.

[Hell Razor5543]

Now you know why Haynes are know as BoL (Book of Lies) throughout the forum.

I would be inclined to introduce your Clio to a hosepipe (with somebody sitting inside) while you can (before the water companies try to introduce a hosepipe ban!). At least you can turn the tap off if needed.

[Mick F]

Hi again guys!

Guess what?
The damned rain is getting in again.

This morning, I'm going to go through the whole procedure again. Hopefully I'll find something clogged. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

Back later!

Thanks and regards,
Mick.

[bxzx16v]

I know how you feel Mick I've just had the same problem with my laguna 3 , I cleared out the drains and removed the rubber flappy things at either end of the scuttle , the wiper arms were stuck solid but I could just reach the passenger side bung and clear/remove it , the drivers side was a sod and I had to access it from the wheelarch area by loosening the liner and JUST being able to get my arm up . On our previous laguna 2 we had water getting into the footwel on that and it turned out to be the drainhole on the bottom of the door , but it only leaked in when parked in a certain position . My car has the sunroof too but this drains onto the bulkhead scuttle area and not down behind the wheelarch liners like on the laguna 2 , were does yours drain ? If it is the same as the laguna 2 the tubes maybe blocked ? I hope you manage to resolve this problem as it's not the best time of year for this sort of issue . I've had a tub of crystals in mine to hopefully remove some of the condensation as the carpet was soaked , keep us posted , all the best .

Mark

[Mick F]

Hi Mark.
Something strange is going on I feel, and the idea about the drains for the sunroof being blocked has merit.

The driver's side footwell is drenched. Also, the area under the driver's seat is wet too. This is rather strange because there's a 2" high carpeted crossmember between the footwell and under the seat. The water in the footwell is always at the front because we park facing down a slope on the drive. If the water is kept at the front, why is is wet under the seat? I know about capillary action, but water generally doesn't flow uphill!

Therefore is it getting in near the seat and travelling down to the footwell?

I really don't know, but I think one of the sunroof drains goes down the B pillar. The front of it definitely drains down the A pillar, and I wonder if there is a blockage somewhere else. If there is a blockage, it could easily be coming in through the RH sill to the side of the driver's seat.

First thing to do is to take the scuttle panels off and have a look-see at the drains there. Then check with a hose to see for certain how the sunroof actually is supposed to drain.

Thanks
Mick.

[Fake Concern]

See my first post on this, could be the sunroof seal now.

[Mick F]

Update:
I took the scuttles off and all is fine, so put them back.

I operated the electric sunroof fully open and poured water into the front drains - all clear.

With the roof fully open, you cannot see much of any rear drains, and when it's only tilted, you still cannot see much. However, the LH rear drained away ok, but the RH rear didn't. By pouring more and more water in, I watched the water pouring in through the inner sill into the car.

I found a thin length of flexy wire and tried to push it down the drain hole to no avail. I could get it in maybe half an inch only.

I took the seal right off and washed it thoroughly in the kitchen sink and inspected it thoroughly too. Other than being a bit manky in places, it was in perfect condition. I cleaned the seal seat area on the car and re-fitted the seal. I operated the sunroof back and forth to make sure it seated properly.

If the seal is the culprit, it certainly doesn't look like it. Maybe a new one may be a tighter fit, but this one doesn't look wrong in any way and it mates perfectly with the glass. If it didn't, we'd hear wind noise through the gap.

The cure for this problem is to clear the rear RH drain and no doubt the rear LH one too. Maybe I should put a new seal on anyway as it won't do any harm.

Does anyone know if the drain goes all the way down to underneath the car by rubber tube, or does it just drain into the sill?
If a bit of the tube were to sticking out, I could connect a blower up to it and purge it.

The Haynes Manual says NOT to dismantle the electric sunroof so there's not even a drawing or instructions given. I cannot see how to strip off the glass to get at the rear drains properly.

Thanks,
Mick.

[Hell Razor5543]

The trick here is to find the outlet end of the drain, and then to try clearing it from that end. I had a similar problem on my BX, and after I did this the problem stopped.

[bxzx16v]

I'd be cheeky and ring the main dealer and ask them where the rear drain tubes run/drain to, my local dealer was very helpful when our laguna 2 had this problem.

Mark

[Mick F]

Good idea.
I'm off into Plymouth on Saturday and I could pop into Vospers and ask very nicely ..............

Meanwhile, I've gaffa taped up all round the sunroof. Funny, but I reckon we've had some rainstorms this year the like of which I've never seen before. Last night, it hammered down for hours. I parked the car the other way round on the drive yesterday, and I don't think any more rain came in. I cannot be sure because it could be under the carpets and by turning round facing uphill any water at the front may have strayed aft. I'm leaving the tape on for now.

I've been using a sponge to suck the water, but it suddenly struck me yesterday that our big vacuum cleaner will suck water! So much easier! Why the heck it didn't occur to me before, I'll never know!

Any road up, I'll get back to this with (hopefully) some good info.

Regards to all,
Mick.

[Mick F]

Vospers was closed.
I don't mean not open, but closed up and empty.

Driving into The Big City on a Saturday, the traffic was horrendous and thick. I'd dropped my lady wife in the city centre and made my way out to Plympton, but Vospers had gone! I'd Googled Renault Plymouth the other day so as far as I was concerned they were where I always remembered them.

Oh well, back to more Googling and probably I'll phone them up .............. it'll be easier than driving through all that traffic again.

Meanwhile, Clio is drying out nicely. The gaffa tape on the roof is holding up to the heavy rains. I'm sure we've had two distinct problems here: one, the front scuttle drains were blocked and the water was coming in through the front, and two: the sunroof drains with rain coming down the inside of the door post. Whether the two problems were concurrent or individual I don't really know, but I suspect they were individual and separated by a few months.

Meanwhile, the gaffa tape will remain on the roof until I can find out the how's and where's of the drainage system.

Regards,
Mick.

[Mick F]

My apologies to everyone in that I've not been back to this subject or even this forum for yonks.

I cured the issue, and it wasn't easy at all.

The gaffa tape on the roof stayed for a while and when I eventually peeled it off, it pulled the gel coat off the paintwork.
knowing what I know now, I'd have used some other method to get it off than just peeling it.

I wasn't sure where the water was getting in, but the gaffa tape had sorted it. I guessed that the water was getting in between the sunroof frame and the steel roof. I took off the inside trim, and removed the glass too, then I could see the sixteen nuts holding the frame down. I unscrewed them all but was careful not to remove them completely. The frame could then be prized up a tad, and I squirted silicone sealant in as far as I could. The frame lifted up ok, but the front portion wouldn't at all despite the nuts being undone, so the injection wasn't 100% but I hoped that it'd be fine.

It tightened everything down, replaced the glass, and cleaned up the excess silicone, and crossed my fingers.

Sadly, the silicone didn't work. As soon as we had a downpour, the water pooled in the footwells. I then put a poly sheet over the whole thing and gaffa taped it down. This was 100% successful but rather ugly to say the least, but it worked.

Months went by.

We don't have a garage, but our daughter has one, so I drove to her place, backed in, and set about taking the whole complete sunroof off. The Haynes manual tells you not to dismantle the sunroof, but I thought that I hadn't much to lose. I removed the glass, the inner trim, and all the sixteen nuts, and tried to lift it off. No joy, because the mechanism and motor system tucks under the roof between the roof lining and the steel roof. I disconnected the battery and managed to disconnect the electrics and undid the bolts holding the motor and the mechanism and with pulling and pushing lifted the sunroof system right out.

I went back home with Mrs Mick F in the other car and I started scratching my head about what to do next.

A week later, I went back with some black gutter sealant and white spirit and loads of rags. I cleaned off the silicone and also the original Renault sealant. Both of these were completely inadequate. The Renault stuff was black and hard and not fully all the way round, and not fully wide where the frame was. The Renault sealant was mainly on the frame and not on the steel very much at all. I made my mind up to do a FAR better job than Renault had done.

I re-fitted the frame dry to make sure I could do it and basically practice the operation. Then, with the frame off and upside down, I applied the gutter sealant all round and re-fitted the frame and squidged it down, and set about fitting the sixteen nuts. Not easy at all and it was a slow process. I used a ratchet ring spanner and the nuts could be placed into the spanner and offered up and screwed. 10mm spanner.

After fitting the motor and mechanism, I reconnected the battery and opened and closed the roof (without the glass) to make sure it worked ok. Then I cleaned off all the excess gutter sealant with white spirit, and finally fitted the sealing ring and glass.

This was all done during July of last year, and although we've had torrential rains, the car remains bone dry. That's nigh-on 12 months.

The one thing that I wasn't able to do, was connect the two rubber drain tubes. When you remove the frame, the tubes get pulled off and it's impossible to reconnect them. From what I can tell, the tubes allow the drainage from the frame ONLY when the roof is open, so the drains aren't required normally, and only if the roof is open when it rains. This would be if the roof was ajar when raining as you woudn't have it fully open in the rain!. As we hardly ever open the sunroof anyway, it isn't an issue to us.

If I were to live my life over again I wouldn't have used the gaffa tape idea at all, and gone straight to the roof removal method .......... but it takes some hours, so a covered area is the way forward ............ or if you can guarantee a rainless few days, do it in the open.

I hope that explains the story ok, and if anyone has any questions, please fire away and I'll try to answer them.

Best wishes to all,
Mick.