05 Dispatch Van - Really loud clatter on start

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 07 May 2010, 21:55

Its amazing how some can do 226k without problems, and others cant..

This is why I dont beleve its injectors..

Paul

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 07 May 2010, 22:04

Mileage is not neccessaraly a factor Paul, I had a newish fairly low mileage Commer 15cwt van with a Perkins diesel which suddenly developed a knock which you would have sworn was a big end - I was delighted to find that it was only an injector.

Peter

nginmu · Unread post by **nginmu** » 08 May 2010, 16:33

slacken off each injector feed pipe in turn

What happens if you do this.. does the diesel just start to leak out from around the threads of the union, in a non-dangerous leisurely fashion, and simply fail to get enough pressure up within the pipe to make it through the injector?

Or, is there a chance it sprays out in some kind of skin piercing eye-gouging dangerous manner?

Just so I know what to expect. Right now I'm rooting out my welding gloves and face mask

Should it be done at the injector or at the pump end? I'm not sure how easy the access is..

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 08 May 2010, 16:54

No danger from an ordinary IDI engine - dont try it with a common rail though, they are dangerous. Slacken the nut at one end of the pipe, which ever is easist to get at, the fuel will just dribble out because you have a much larger hole than the one in the injector! You will have to give it a few revs or it will stall on three cylinders, be prepared for the engine to shake a bit.

Peter

nginmu · Unread post by **nginmu** » 09 May 2010, 20:14

Managed to do injectors 1, 3 & 4 as above with a short 17mm open-ended spanner and a bit of 1" aluminium tube as an extension lever. Injector 2's feed pipe I've not yet been able to get a purchase on at either end.

Loosening of any of the 3 injector unions 1, 3 & 4 cause rough running & leakage of diesel as expected, but the clatter is still there as loud as ever.

I did notice something I'd not mentioned before though. Some time ago I noticed a puddle of oil on top of the clutch bellhousing, and a trail of oil which seemed to lead back up to the flywheel side of the cam cover.

I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from so I pressure washed the engine & then sprayed a shedload of no-residue brake cleaner over all the offending area, leaving it clean of all oil and muck and dry as a bone.

That was about 500 - 1k miles ago. When looking closely yesterday, I noticed the oil was back again. The contamination seems to be restricted to a fairly small area around injector no. 4

So this made me wonder if injector 4 is maybe damaged in some way. This seems to be the only injector to have some kind of electrical wire sprouting out the top of it.. did someone mention a sensor earlier in the thread? Could a leaking no 4 injector indicate some kind of internal damage that would affect such a sensor in such a way as to cause the knock.. hmm

Then again, maybe it's the still-untested injector 2 that's causing the knock.

Or maybe, none of the above, it's the pump..

Hope to get to grips with injector 2 maybe tomorrow. Think I will have to fab up some kind of bespoke tool to get in there though.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 09 May 2010, 20:32

The injector could be leaking but I wouldn't expect that to affect its performance, could be that the leak off pipe is the cause. You really need to eliminate the other injector before you do anything else.

Unread post by **myglaren** » 09 May 2010, 21:08

nginmu wrote: So this made me wonder if injector 4 is maybe damaged in some way. This seems to be the only injector to have some kind of electrical wire sprouting out the top of it.. did someone mention a sensor earlier in the thread? Could a leaking no 4 injector indicate some kind of internal damage that would affect such a sensor in such a way as to cause the knock.. hmm

I'm pretty sure that the needle lift sensor shlould be on injector #3

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 09 May 2010, 21:30

Yes Steve, on the Late XUD engines from 1997 the sensor is on Injector 3

NOTE: The injector at the gearbox end is NO.1 not 4, French cylinder timing on all petrol and DERVs are ALL No.1 on gearbox end and No.4 at the Cam belt.

I still think the Pump is at fault and not adjusting the timing internally..

Paul

EDIT: Kindly editied a mistype...

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 09 May 2010, 21:30

Injector 1 is flywheel end IIRC. You're correct, the lift sensor is fitted on injector 3 Steve.

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 09 May 2010, 21:34

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 09 May 2010, 21:53

citroenxm wrote: I still think the Upm is at fault and not adjusting the timing internally..

Paul, what's a Upm? Never heard of one of those...

What pump is on the engine? Being a DW8 it may well be a Lucas and in that case the Lift Sensor may not be on Injector 3. The 2.1TD with Lucas EPIC has the Lift Sensor on Injector 4.

The only way to be sure the injectors are Ok is to take them to a diesel specialist. he'll pop them on his test rig and check spray patterns and the cut-in/out pressures.

The Lift Sensor can be checked with an ohmmeter. It should read around 100 ohms if good. They normally fail open-circuit.

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 09 May 2010, 21:58

CitroJim wrote: What pump is on the engine? Being a DW8 it may well be a Lucas and in that case the Lift Sensor may not be on Injector 3. The 2.1TD with Lucas EPIC has the Lift Sensor on Injector 4.

Stupid Lucas setup

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 09 May 2010, 22:00

COULDN'T agree with you more Mike !

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 10 May 2010, 08:04

MikeT wrote: Stupid Lucas setup

citroenxm wrote:COULDN'T agree with you more Mike !

Now then boys

Play nicely now. Poor Lucas is a very sensitive pump and gets upset by all this teasing

nginmu · Unread post by **nginmu** » 10 May 2010, 10:07

Well I guess the vid might help identify it positively, but I've understood it to be a 1.9 non-turbo DW8 engine with a Lucas pump. I'm not 100% certain I'm right though.

My goof regards cylinder numbering; I was incorrectly counting 1234 from left to right looking at the engine from an observer's position stood in front of the van, when I should have been counting 4321 left to right. So yes I meant that injector number 1 is the oily one and it's injector 1 that has the electrical wire sprouting from it's top. The wire seems to enter the injector right underneath the pipe union thread.

With the correct numbering scheme, I have tried the DIY testing on injectors 4, 2 and 1 so far, and have yet to try loosening the pipe on injector 3.

The only way to be sure the injectors are Ok is to take them to a diesel specialist. he'll pop them on his test rig and check spray patterns and the cut-in/out pressures.

Luckily I do have a good diesel specialist locally that I've used before, so for sure I will be taking her there if the home diagnostics fail.