Engine oil

Unread post by **Old-Guy** » 17 Jul 2009, 22:29

I'll second Jim's expert opinion (based on 40+ years of DIY maintenance and repairs). I refuse to pay inflated prices for 'well-known' brand oils - save your money and change the oil and filter more frequently.

It's perhaps worth remembering a couple of things about modern engines and oils:

1. For decades past, in the UK the majority of new cars have been sold as 'company cars' whose drivers are unlikely to check anything unless a warning light comes on. Long service intervals are a key selling point. Once a car is out of warranty, the quicker it dies of neglect, the better for the manufacturer! Alfa suffered a spate of premature engine failures on T-Sparks because the idea of topping-up the oil between services is completely alien to a lot of company-car drivers - when the oil pressure warning light came on, it was too late.

The 'common failure mode' was a con-rod through the sump!

2. Short and stop-start journeys are hardest on cars in general and on engine oil in particular because the oil rarely gets hot enough to evaporate the condensation that builds up from the engine not getting fully hot before it's stopped and allowed to cool.

On the subject of tool kits on old cars; back in the early 1970s, I had a Porsche 356 (built in 55 IIRC). The engine could be removed, stripped and rebuilt using only the toolkit: 10mm & 17mm spanners, 10mm and 17mm tube spanners, 10mm allen key (long), plug spanner, screw driver, pliers. The works rally mechanics reckoned two of them could change a clutch in under 20 minutes! Compare this to the array of standard and unusual sockets, spanners and special tools required to do major jobs on a Xantia.

Guy

falling-out-with-my-car · 19 Jul 2009, 11:42

for the last five years I have been changing the engine oil in my xantia estate every 3, 000 miles using wilkinsons own brand semi-synthetic 10w 40 oil £7.99 for 5 litres, as rcommended by a local taxi driver who had an XM which clocked up 500,000 miles.

all oil regardless of expense semi-synthetic, sythentic etc starts to break down after 2,000 miles so wating 9,000 miles to change the oil I would assume is a no-no.

I was told to look for a minimum specification of CF printed on the back of the oil bottle.

regards Nigel.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 19 Jul 2009, 21:32

all oil regardless of expense semi-synthetic, synthetic etc starts to break down after 2,000 miles

I gotta call you on this one. Can you post something to verify this please as its quite contrary to the things I've read regarding synthetics.

Have a quick butchers at this, its a summary site, most of the information given here can be verified by a quick google search, it also explains the API rating of 'CF', certainly a minimum requirement.
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Unread post by **admiral51** » 19 Jul 2009, 22:17

Hi Sid thats a good link well worth reading

Just adding to the info in the link one of the trucks at work had diesel leaking into the oil (still not identified cause yet) but it cost £6000 for a replacement engine.Having seen the innards of the old one diesel is a ruddy good cleaning agent it was spotless looked a brand new one

Colin

Unread post by **myglaren** » 19 Jul 2009, 22:31

Sid_the_Squid wrote:
all oil regardless of expense semi-synthetic, synthetic etc starts to break down after 2,000 miles
I gotta call you on this one. Can you post something to verify this please as its quite contrary to the things I've read regarding synthetics.

Have a quick butchers at this, its a summary site, most of the information given here can be verified by a quick google search, it also explains the API rating of 'CF', certainly a minimum requirement.
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Beat me to it Sid. The Car Bibles are very interesting reading.

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 19 Jul 2009, 23:25

myglaren wrote:Beat me to it Sid. The Car Bibles are very interesting reading.

From the suspension section of car bibles;
"The following cars were fitted with hydropneumatic suspension: Traction Avant 15 Six H, D series, GS/GSA, SM, BX, some XMs and most Xantias"

I've come across another "Bible" somewhere which has some strange tales

XantiaMan · Unread post by **XantiaMan** » 20 Jul 2009, 09:30

falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
all oil regardless of expense semi-synthetic, sythentic etc starts to break down after 2,000 miles so wating 9,000 miles to change the oil I would assume is a no-no.

Sorry, no they dont. Virtually all modern cars have oil that can go 20,000 miles. Yes, it will be well past it by that time, but use the same type of engine oil in your own car and change at 10k max and it wont be (-expletive removed-). If i use a semi-synthetic i go to 5k, a fully synthetic 10k.

falling-out-with-my-car · 20 Jul 2009, 20:40

Sid,
I read your car bible page (very interesting) but it doesnt say that CF is a absolute minimum rating for diesels in fact it says it is perfectly adequate for diesel family cars.

if others want to argue that oil doesnt break down after the first 2,000 miles of use it won't change my routine of changing my diesel engine oil every 3,000 miles, you go ahead if you want to and stick to Citroens 10 thousand mile intervals I bet my engine outlasts yours any day I am acting on what I was told by an XM taxi owner who had successfully reached 500,000 miles without ever needing any serious engine work done. so synthetic semi-synthetic, mineral etc its all marketing in my book unless of course you believe its ok to change the oil every 20,000 miles in your car. I'll stick to every 3,000 miles thank you.

it is strange the habbits people form in taking care of their pride and joy my Father once owned a Ford Zodiac (this was a long time before synthetic oils) he had access to a free supply of oil and used to change the engine oil every week. so I think 3,000 miles isnt excessive. i regard spending £50 on a bottle of oil as excessive.

4 oil changes a year and I can inspect the oil for contamination frequently.

as Sid's Bible page points out Vauxhalls sufferered with the black death as did my 1980 Mk2 Cavalier many years ago, the oil strainer blocked up and she seized. and that was changing the oil every 8,000 miles.

regards Nigel

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 20 Jul 2009, 21:01

Seriously Nigel no one is trying to make you change, I am quite willing to accept that Wilkinson own brand mineral oil with synthetic additives (the minimum requirement for the claim of semi-synthetic) does indeed break down after 2000 miles, as you and the XM taxi driver would suggest, what I, and others have been hoping to demonstrate to you and anyone else reading this public information forum is that not all oils are the same. I am of the opinion that it will be perfectly fine to use a cheaper oil for more frequent changes, I think with the same net result as using a more expensive oil with less frequent changes.
I said that CF should be taken as a minimum as it has already been superseded a few times, but like everything I’m saying here, that just my opinion.

so synthetic semi-synthetic, mineral etc its all marketing in my book

That’s a very cynical attitude, and frankly I can’t see how you can maintain that belief, do you seriously think that the big oil companies don’t spend millions of pounds each year on R&D for new technologies, but instead just throw a big party and create an elaborate conspiracy?

Either way, bottom line, no one is upset about the way you choose to service your car, what is important is that you don't make wild claims which you then later cannot backup. This is after all a public information forum.

Unread post by **myglaren** » 20 Jul 2009, 21:21

falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
if others want to argue that oil doesnt break down after the first 2,000 miles of use it won't change my routine of changing my diesel engine oil every 3,000 miles, you go ahead if you want to and stick to Citroens 10 thousand mile intervals I bet my engine outlasts yours any day...

But Nigel, If as you say the oil breaks down after 2,000 miles, shouldn't you be changing it at between 1,500 & 2,000 miles - before it breaks down?
I used to do my Xantia every month. Not so diligent with the C5 although it is done at approximately half the recommended frequency (6,000 rather than 12,500).

falling-out-with-my-car · 20 Jul 2009, 21:31

Sid,

Lets face it this great oil debate is really about what people can afford to do with their vechicle, if you can afford to pay £50 for five litres of oil you will probably never actually change the oil in your car it will probably be done at manufacturer standard service intervals at your main dealership.

Respectfully I appreciate your argument for using a so called better quality oil which is something a dealership won't put in your car, not if your back is turned anyway.(they just call it an oil change).

However I do look for the minium standards before I go thundering off to the cash desk.

I found a bit on a motorcycle site about oil breaking down after 2,000 miles but that didnt include synthetic oils and just where fully synthetic oils intended for high performance engines come into maintainning xantias or come to think of it most citroens?

cynical or not those are my views and as you say Sid your views are your views. But stamping all over the beliefs of others won't necessarily make joe blogs go out tommorrow and spend his last £50 on four litres of engine oil just because the oil bible says its good stuff. The oil Bible is not proof that anything is better than anything else, its just a blogg written by someone on the web.

no Joe bloggs will probably buy his usual grade of cheaper oil dependant upon his depth of pocket and the current financial climate.

regards Nigel.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 20 Jul 2009, 22:06

Nigel, I've said about as much as I can on car oil, what you choose to believe is your right as a free man, and I would not dream of ever taking that away. Based on the arguments we have both presented here, I think that the readers can also make up their own minds about which path to follow.

As you mentioned bike oil, I'll say one thing on that subject having been a former biker myself, which is where I first 'cut my teeth' as a DIY mechanic. Motorcycle oils are very different to car oils, lubricating the wet multi plate clutch and gearbox as well as the engine, they endure very different operating conditions, much finer oil pathways, and contain very different additives which would not be allowed in car oil, (bikes have very loose emission laws), also the bike marked is flooded with Japanese sports bikes, most of which rev to 10,000 if not 14,000 rpm, which most bikers are more than happy to ride the red line all day; again very different situation to your average petrol car.

falling-out-with-my-car · 20 Jul 2009, 22:32

Sid,

so engine oil does break down after 2,000 miles but only in bikes then?
I also cut my teeth in mechanics with two stroke bike engines.

lets assume you do put fully sythetic oil in your petrol car engine and it suffers mechanical failure outside of warrenty, due to dirty oil, does spending £50 on fully synthetic oil guarrentee that the oil company will pick up the bill at the end of the day? I think not so therefore why waste your money buy a cheaper oil of minimum specification and change it frequently, which I fully understand and appreciate is very very old school and in your book may be somewhat ignorant/arrogant.

what you should be willing to accept is that there are a great many old classic vechicles still about today because the old fashioned oil was changed frequently.

Have a look at this site, it does warn of dirt in synthetic oils and the damage it can do.

www.trustmymechanic.com/change_oil.html

Titled "oil change- How often should you change it"?

fair enough it is mentioned that the 3,000 mile rule is more of a marketing ploy than anything but it can do no harm can it, esspecially if you spend less than £50 a year on oil. clean oil as opposed to dirty oil can be no bad thing can it?

there is a bit further down the page (in feedback) about contamination of fully synthetic oils and they recommend oil changes with synthetic oils of 7,500 miles. interesting.

Steve, my initial statement read " all oil starts to break down at 2,000 miles not does break down.
what i should have said which would have been a little more accurate was all petrolium based oils.

best wishes.

Nigel.

Unread post by **myglaren** » 20 Jul 2009, 22:59

Thanks Nigel, that casts a slightly different light on it.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 21 Jul 2009, 08:03

so engine oil does break down after 2,000 miles but only in bikes then?

Don't know, but I would have though it more likely to haver a shorter life. I mention it to hilight the difference between bike oil and car oil, if your compaing apples to apples better make sure ones not an orange.

what you should be willing to accept is that there are a great many old classic vechicles still about today because the old fashioned oil was changed frequently.

If that is addressed to me, then you really need to pay attention to what I've actually written in previous posts.

Have a look at this site, it does warn of dirt in synthetic oils and the damage it can do

Yep oil containments can cause massive damage, this is why we have filters on the air, fuel, and oil to prevents our engines oil becoming liquid sand paper, obviously over time some bits do get through, hence why even after spending £50~60 on 5 liters I do change my oil every 10k miles.

So we started this discussion, with you saying.

all oil regardless of expense semi-synthetic, sythentic etc starts to break down after 2,000 miles

And now...

what i should have said which would have been a little more accurate was all petrolium based oils.

Yes, yes you should of, thats been the subject of my entire debate with you.
I'm glad we got there in the end.

Times change, technology changes, you either keep up or get left behind.