Gold Sinker Mk1

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aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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white exec wrote:The suspension ECU is designed to run a built-in diagnostic sequence each time the IGN switch is turned on. I am guessing that it expects to see the car at rest, and maybe zero input from the various sensors. In the main, you might get away with all this, because most of the external checks done by the ECU are simply for continuity, presence and resistance of the sensors and EVs.

Still not sure why you would want an "always firm" setting, unless just for experimental purposes.
My reason for this is simply that I'm fascinted by the extent of difference between the two states and quite enjoy driving the Xantia (that I believe has a nice chassis dynamic) with a firm- yet- hydropneumatic ride with barely noticiable roll, and that there are a few characterisitics of Hydractive 2 that I find less favourable. I ran one XM with Hydractive 1 and found that system to be much more pleasing than H2 in use. I drive both on the motorway and on some hilly, twisty backroads and I find the 'sport' setting of the H2 to be lacking on those roads. Sure, 80-90% of the time it clicks to a suitably firm mode but often it lags at a moment where a constant firm setting would be better. I also find the rear suspension to be much softer than the front that causes a weird disparity in pitch modes that I find unrefined (didn't seem as bad on my Xm with H2 so could be a fault with the xantia but I don't think so).

Having now driven it with the modified system it is working well - on 'firm plus' mode it's like driving an early XM in sport mode but with the nippier and more trim handling than on my 2 XMs.

Anyway, this is all just a personal bit of enthusiasm for the systems.

More pressing matter is that the pedal sensor is still a problem. I spent a bit more time checking the resistances at the 3 pins at the black ECU plug. The resistences measured at pins 3,4 and 12 at the ECU were: N12-N3 3K9 ohm, N12-N4 1K9 ohm and between N4-N3 5K6 ohm. These all seemed a bit low but the voltage supplied from the ecu is 4.7v again, a bit lower than the 5v expected.

The spare pedal sensor I have tested resistances of: 4K2, 2K4 and 6K3 respective to the above, all much closer to the right spec. I tested the pedal current sensor at its plug and it checked out with the same values as found at the ECU so I don't think there's anything being lost somewhere in between the sensor and the ECU (according to one diagram I have there's a big grey multi connector in the dashboard somewhere the sensor wires go through but don't know where) Anyway I swapped the sensor for the spare one with 'better' resistance but to no avail, it still doesn't activate the ecu. One observation was that the pedal sensor temporarily came back to life again after a good 7 miles and then after a while went back to inactive - this is something I think I've seen a couple of times now I wonder why it's occasionally working regardless of which of the two sensors is fitted.

Hydractive still working with all other sensors, steering, brake pressure, body movement, changes between the normal and sport setting (seperate from the additional switch I fitted)

I need a LEXIA!
Graeme, you may be best off getting diagnosis via an ELIT Machine... Never known mine to yet fail to read any of the older ECUs... If you are ever down this way call in... Many Clone Lexias seem a bit 'iffy' on early S1s... Mine is...
Jim, I think I'm at such a dead end on this pedal sensor problem I would actually drive all the way to yours just to hook it up!
Only way I know how to get hard is to stop the engine and wait 30s for the ECU to switch as it goes to sleep...
Jim, this is basically what happens when I press the 'new' additional sport switch on mine now - it cuts the power to the ECU - but not the constant 12v feed - so the ECU acts as though you stopped the engine. Keep driving, or stationary and after the 30 sec it clonks into stiff mode and the hydractive lamp comes on. If I press the switch again it immediately goes back to normal modes. The doors open puts it in soft mode regardless of any switch.

I just don't quite get this pedal sensor thing though, it's getting voltage, it's sending it back to the ECU, the resistances and continuity are all accounted for... :cry:

I also got an LHM leak :-D

The rubber return pipe from the top of the front hydractive firmness regulator joins the main return from the pressure regulator in a T. This had split and was oozing out. It steadily got worse until it was now syphoning LHM out from the tank.

Image

A rubber hose right behind the radiator for 23 years that's so much lower than the tank is trouble!
Graeme M
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white exec
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by white exec »

Graeme,
Thanks indeed for that really detailed reply. I can now understand your thinking behind wanting an always-firm setting to be available, as well as normal H2 operation.
It could be that the car has a 'soft back end' compared to the front, and that will result in some odd handling.

Have had a look at your figures for the two throttle sensors/potentiometers, and I think either of the two should work well enough. We have
Potentiometer track (N12-N3).....yours 5k6, your spare 6k3, book says 4k7
Protector resistor (what you measure with wiper at track end (N12-N4).....yours 1k9, your spare 2k4, book 2k05.
I think these are all within commercial automotive tolerances, which are nothing much to shout about for this sort of component.

So, so long a the ECU can see a decent and uninterrupted sweep of resistance values from the sensor, it should be able to do the necessary division and calibration, and perform its task.

My guess is you may be right - either a rogue intermittent connection between sensor and ECU (that multiway connector you refer to?) or a good old connection or other issue in the suspension ECU itself. Do you have another suspension ECU you could try?
Chris
aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by aerodynamica »

Hi Chris no I don't have an ECU (not really sure where to find one nowadays - different from the start of my old CX days Y2000 ish where lots of people had millions of spares and were keen to let them go for not much! - I have a tow bar and alloy for XM I can't give away!)

I was thinking about that grey connector - not really sure where it is. It's probably buried in the dashboard and the Xantia dashboard is a world of pain!
Graeme M
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CitroJim
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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aerodynamica wrote:
Graeme, you may be best off getting diagnosis via an ELIT Machine... Never known mine to yet fail to read any of the older ECUs... If you are ever down this way call in... Many Clone Lexias seem a bit 'iffy' on early S1s... Mine is...
Jim, I think I'm at such a dead end on this pedal sensor problem I would actually drive all the way to yours just to hook it up!!
Graeme, you are always welcome, any time...
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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Cheers Jim
Graeme M
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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aerodynamica wrote: I paid a visit to Richard today to hook up his lexia to auld Katy to maybe find out what's happening with this pedal sensor issue but unfortunately we couldn't get it to read any of the ecus (well on this old xantia there's only the hydractive and the abs) but no combination of off and on again before during or after connecting the lexia world make it work so it was disappointing but worth a try.
RichardW ?

Sounds like Richard's Lexia kit has one of the "bogus" 16 to 30 pin adaptors that don't actually work. :-D A lot of the Lexia clones come with a short adaptor from 16 pin OBD-II to the rectangular 30 pin connector used on Series 1 Xantia's which are simply not wired correctly and don't work at all. More often than not these adaptors don't work, and because hardly anyone needs this adaptor it doesn't get noticed or complained about. There is a thread on the forum somewhere where we compared the pinouts of my working adaptor and someones non-working one and they were totally different.

My adaptor cable still can't read all the ECU's on my S1 - from memory the deadlocking, reversing mirror and air bag ECU's won't read, but all of the others do read, including the Hydractive 2 ECU. To be able to read all ECU's on a S1 I believe (but haven't confirmed) you need a cable that goes directly from the round 30 pin adaptor to the rectangular 30 pin adaptor without going via a 16 pin OBD-II socket - as the 16 pin socket doesn't have enough wires for all the ECU's on a S1 and has two pins connected to the same signal - which doesn't work.

The only person I know with this full cable is David Hallworth so one day when I am visiting I'll try his cable on my S1 Xantia to see if that is indeed what is needed to read all of the ECU's.

I'm a bit busy at the moment with relatives staying but if you're still having trouble in a couple of weeks I could try my Lexia on your car to see if it reads the Hydractive 2 ECU - my guess is that it will, based on the fact that I can read mine.
Simon

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2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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Thanks Simon that would be great
Graeme M
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by RichardW »

That about sums it up Simon! I forgot that earlier cars had a different socket, and wasn't even aware I had an 'adaptor' till I looked in the box. And, yes it plugs into the 16 pin OBD socket. So, it was probably never going to jive! Ah, well, it was nice to meet Graeme at the weekend, and see his very smart early MK1!! He and I were both amused that he had learnt to drive past my door, and reminisced about the now defunct Cit dealership that used to be at the end of my road....
Richard W
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:That about sums it up Simon! I forgot that earlier cars had a different socket, and wasn't even aware I had an 'adaptor' till I looked in the box. And, yes it plugs into the 16 pin OBD socket. So, it was probably never going to jive! Ah, well, it was nice to meet Graeme at the weekend, and see his very smart early MK1!! He and I were both amused that he had learnt to drive past my door, and reminisced about the now defunct Cit dealership that used to be at the end of my road....
Hi Richard,

When you have a few minutes spare and a multi-meter have a look at this thread!

https://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ ... 11&t=49045

It was started by Trainman trying to figure out why his adaptor didn't work at all and I posted the exact pin-outs of my adaptor which does at least read most ECU's, even if not all... I'd be very interested to know how your adaptors pinouts deviate from to mine. :)

In theory as long as both plugs had all required wires connected and present in the cable but just connected wrongly you might be able to do a cut and splice job to get it working! :twisted:
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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Thanks Simon that would be great
Graeme M
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KennyW
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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Graeme,

Send me a pm re lexia

Kenny
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aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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PM sent Kenny,

Mild update on Auld Katy's behavior; the pedal sensor still does nothing while all other Hydractive functions seem normal. I was using the 'new' sport setting - the added switch that cuts the ECU and switches it to constant firm suspension and all was well - firm, but well. On the motorway I switched it back, it immediately goes back to soft/ normal suspension but I noticed the pedal sensor was now working! It continued to work for ages in both suspension modes (original Hydractive 2 modes, normal and sport) It was seemingly back to normal until I left the motorway and stopped at lights whereupon it went back to its old ways - the pedal sensor not working.

I wonder if speed information is part of the issue? Also switching the added switch performs a 'reset' of the ECU but at low speeds it makes no difference. At motorway speed it seems to bring it back to normal function until the speed goes back down to stationary.

This is all very odd.

And a bit annoying.
Graeme M
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

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aerodynamica wrote: I wonder if . . .
This is all very odd.
And a bit annoying.
Graeme, you will never know, unless you fit those EV LEDs.
You know it makes sense.
Just do it.
C.
Chris
aerodynamica
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by aerodynamica »

I will fit them in due course but the trouble is I wonder what they will tell me? I know it is in soft mode or hard mode because I can feel it and in addition tuning the radio to LW corresponds exactly to the feedback. The problem isn't whether the EVs are working - I know they are, it's what is going wrong with the signal from the pedal sensor.
Graeme M
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white exec
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Re: Gold Sinker Mk1

Unread post by white exec »

The LEDs will tell you what the back and front EV feeds are individually doing.
They also show clearly that the 12v pull-in and "3v" hold-in is functioning correctly.
They are also very sensitive to any twitches in EV supply.
Chris