Test driving an SX Xantia

Unread post by **Dommo** » 29 Dec 2009, 19:40

Oh of course what a flid.. I forgot about the PAS being part of the hydraulic suspension system

If you dont mind me asking what's better about the Lucas EPIC pump? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just asking. And what about it is electronically controlled?

Cheers folks

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2009, 19:54

The Lucas EPIC is a fully electronically controlled pump. Speed, advance curve, fuel delivery and so on. Unlike say, the Bosch AS3 on the later 1.9TD Xantia which only has electronic timing control. The EPIC is effectively a "fly by wire" pump where the throttle just operates a pot.

The EPIC meters fuel extremely accurately and thus gives great power delivery with superb economy and very low smoke. I used to run a 2.1TD estate equipped with such a pump and it was marvelous

Their unreliability is a false urban legend which I believe comes about from a combination of neglect and using inappropriate fuel. They will not tolerate anything except good, clean diesel and will throw their toys if fed anything else.

They also demand a clean fuel filter at all times and there must not be a trace of air leaks anywhere in the fuel system as the diesel itself is used as a hydraulic fluid to control the various servos inside the pump.

Bosch pumps are more tolerant in this respect and of course will pump virtually any liquid that can be atomised, compressed and ignited

I consider Lucas pumps generally meter more accurately than Bosch pumps but are, as I say, fussier for good maintenance.

Another urban legend that the EPIC cannot be repaired is also rubbish although admittedly, due to their rarity, a diesel company will charge the earth to sort one out but actually they're dead simple to strip, clean and reseal.

The are rare though, only some PSA engines and a few Transits ever used them. I believe it is the Transit community that have spread the legends about them being rubbish but I expect that is because they tip coal into their fuel tanks rather than good quality diesel...

I'm a great fan of Lucas pumps although admittedly somewhat in a minority around here

Try one and love it!

Unread post by **Dommo** » 29 Dec 2009, 20:23

CitroJim wrote:The Lucas EPIC is a fully electronically controlled pump. Speed, advance curve, fuel delivery and so on. Unlike say, the Bosch AS3 on the later 1.9TD Xantia which only has electronic timing control. The EPIC is effectively a "fly by wire" pump where the throttle just operates a pot.

The EPIC meters fuel extremely accurately and thus gives great power delivery with superb economy and very low smoke. I used to run a 2.1TD estate equipped with such a pump and it was marvelous

Their unreliability is a false urban legend which I believe comes about from a combination of neglect and using inappropriate fuel. They will not tolerate anything except good, clean diesel and will throw their toys if fed anything else.

They also demand a clean fuel filter at all times and there must not be a trace of air leaks anywhere in the fuel system as the diesel itself is used as a hydraulic fluid to control the various servos inside the pump.

Bosch pumps are more tolerant in this respect and of course will pump virtually any liquid that can be atomised, compressed and ignited

I consider Lucas pumps generally meter more accurately than Bosch pumps but are, as I say, fussier for good maintenance.

Another urban legend that the EPIC cannot be repaired is also rubbish although admittedly, due to their rarity, a diesel company will charge the earth to sort one out but actually they're dead simple to strip, clean and reseal.

The are rare though, only some PSA engines and a few Transits ever used them. I believe it is the Transit community that have spread the legends about them being rubbish but I expect that is because they tip coal into their fuel tanks rather than good quality diesel...

I'm a great fan of Lucas pumps although admittedly somewhat in a minority around here

Try one and love it!

Thanks for that reply, certainly useful. It sounds like the newer Lucas pump I had in my 306, it wasn't electronically controlled (I think, but it was definately different to the earlier lucas pump fitted to 306's) or anything but it did run cleaner and more powerful than the Bosch pump I put in it's place.

Is there any reason why the EPIC pump would not tolerate a good twin tank system? I know it's a bit of a risk but I wouldn't bother converting the Activa to a 2.1 if I couldn't run it on much cheaper fuel, it wouldn't work out as much of a saving than if I just left it with the TCT engine.

Also with the electronically controlled bits, does that mean it automatically alters for a high idle at cold start, or when the AC turns on, things like that? And how would I go about wiring all the fuel pump things in? Sounds like it might be a ball ache..

Cheers.

deian · Unread post by **deian** » 29 Dec 2009, 20:36

CitroJim wrote:I believe it is the Transit community that have spread the legends about them being rubbish but I expect that is because they tip coal into their fuel tanks rather than good quality diesel...

Coal? Surely not, I believe they tip sand and water in, along with many large tools such as cement mixers, shovels, and 110volt transformers, oh and a sprinkling of rust!

The 2.1td pump served me well in my previous Xantia, don't know what the urban myths are all about, they won't take veggie oil though! And in an Activa car would be a good choice, I believe they both have a hydraulic clutch too. I would think the job would be complex yes. Good luck.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2009, 21:12

Dommo wrote: Is there any reason why the EPIC pump would not tolerate a good twin tank system?

It's all to do with the fine tolerance of the distributor head Dommo, the cylinder pointed to by the green arrow below which slides and rotates in the large circular housing containing the delivery valves to the injectors.

The head relies on diesel for its lubrication and that lubrication must be carried in a very thin fluid to effectively penetrate the whole of the head bore. Veg, even when heated in a twin-tank set-up, is just too thick to effectively flow in the very fine bore and the result is the head starves of lubrication and seizes up solid. The pump is then a write-off as the drive shaft shears to protect the engine. Otherwise a seizing pump would cause the cambelt to jump teeth and wreck the engine.

The Bosch works in an entirely different way and head lubrication is not so critical. It is why they survive pumping veg.

Dommo wrote: Also with the electronically controlled bits, does that mean it automatically alters for a high idle at cold start, or when the AC turns on, things like that? And how would I go about wiring all the fuel pump things in? Sounds like it might be a ball ache..

Yes it does

All of that!

there is no separate fuel pump in the tank (as in say, the HDi) as the EPIC has its own lift pump built in.

The ECU is not difficult to wire in and the existing TDC sensor and coolant temperature sensor can be used. The ECU on the EPIC also controls the glowplug timer. If you get an EPIC donor, the ECU will be keypad protected in the MK1 and transponder protected in the MK2. It's essential to know the keypad code and get hold of the transponder, key and body computer if using a MK2. Now that can be a ball-ache to get working again!

Unread post by **Dommo** » 29 Dec 2009, 21:38

The same reason as the other lucas pump then, I didn't realise the set of events that caused the drive shaft to break though, I just knew that it didn't lubricate it enough and it seized and snapped. Makes complete sense though now you've shown me that picture.

I'd be tempted to leave the EPIC pump in place now, if I wanted to just run on diesel you'd have converted me.

Is the Bosch VP20 hard to come by? And what electronic controls (if any) are on it?

Thanks.

By the way, something I was wondering, is it possible to reduce the size of the HP pump pulley so it spins faster effectively. Would that reduce the amount of time you have to wait for the stop light to go out?

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2009, 21:57

Dommo wrote: Is the Bosch VP20 hard to come by? And what electronic controls (if any) are on it?

There's two versions Dommo, the fully mechanical VP20 fitted to 1.9TD XUDs up until about 1996 and this pump has no electronics on it at all, just a stop solenoid and an electric cold advance electrovalve which can be powered from the glowplugs. This one is the easiest by far to use.

The second variant is the VP20 AS3 fitted to 1.9TDs post-1996 and has an ECU to control timing. It is easily recognised by being armoured around the stop solenoid and having a pot on top of the throttle spindle.

I tried to find a picture of one but I only seem to have pictures of pumps in bits

However, you may find this site useful. There's a few pictures there...

The AS3 can be used with its ECU and the ECU itself is uncoded but the real problem of using the AS3 is that it'll need dearmouring to get at the stop solenoid unless you have a keypad and code to go with it. If you run an AS3 without an ECU it'll run of sorts but the timing will be fixed fully retarded and there'll be no automatic advance.

If you use a mechanical VP20, you also need the mechanical glowplug timer as the timer used with the EPIC (and AS3) are ECU controlled whereas the older VP20 one is not.

Reducing the size of the HP pump pulley would likely make little difference. I've seen MOT testers rev the guts out of a Xantia to try to make it rise quicker but in reality it makes no difference...

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 29 Dec 2009, 22:47

Reliability issues aside for this one!

But I think a HDi Activa would be EVEN better for daily running!

It is also a 110bhp unit, but however, can easilly be put up to 128bhp, or even more... Im actually a big fan of the HDi, I think (BUT not certain) its a lighter lump then the 2.1, smaller cc's and an 8v head rather then 12v, coupled with more bhp has to be the correct combination!!

Of course, the ultimate is a V6 Activa, as I think one has already been done..

Im in two minds, Ive got a complete HDi 110bhp engine here, runner and a good one too, but cant decide now to stick it in an XM or an Activa.. problem is finding an Activa thats engine less, and isn't owned by the useual "... Oh ill get more for it in bits then car whole car mate......!!"

So I guess its heading towards an XM..

Paul

Unread post by **Dommo** » 29 Dec 2009, 23:34

Thats brill Jim, thanks. I did notice the electronic bit sat on top of the throttle lever. What purpose does it serve? Is it able to increase the revs when load is put on it by AC or whatever? Or is it purely to know where the throttle lever is to know when to put advance on?

Sounds like I could do with the AS3 version then for a 2.1 conversion if I didn't want the lucas pump, I've read that someone has fitted a 1.9 pump to a 2.1 but I'm not sure which varient it was...

I'd like a HDi version, but I'd love to use vegetable oil. I know that a HDi version would be the better option though in reality.

edit - a 1.9 Bosch pump to a 2.1 that is.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 30 Dec 2009, 00:11

Sounds good Paul, a HDi activa is something id love, im pretty sure that if that version had been sold in the UK we would have a lot more Activas running around now. Real shame.

Still no harm in making one.

HDis are good engines, very economical and refined, on the whole reliable too. Though it might look a bit lonely in an Xms engine bay

Unless your running on veg then the HDi makes more sense in some ways, as its more economical, but not as basic and bomp proof.

Do you get any problems running on veg Dom? I suppose you have to do more regular servicing, fuel filters often etc? Where do you get your veg oil from is my biggest question

Unread post by **Dommo** » 30 Dec 2009, 00:53

Citroenmad wrote:Sounds good Paul, a HDi activa is something id love, im pretty sure that if that version had been sold in the UK we would have a lot more Activas running around now. Real shame.

Still no harm in making one.

HDis are good engines, very economical and refined, on the whole reliable too. Though it might look a bit lonely in an Xms engine bay

Unless your running on veg then the HDi makes more sense in some ways, as its more economical, but not as basic and bomp proof.

Do you get any problems running on veg Dom? I suppose you have to do more regular servicing, fuel filters often etc? Where do you get your veg oil from is my biggest question

I think this is the first time I've actually been asked a question rather than being the one asking the questions

The main problem is hunting at cold idle caused by the oil being too thick, once the engine's heated up the fuel filter housing warms the oil up though. Some people claim to run on 100% WVO but I tried and my engine just simply won't do it, it won't run even when heated up. I have to put in about 15 litres of diesel to every tank full, more now it's really cold. So £15-20 a tank isn't bad!

To make it cheaper than that you can get heaters which you put in before the fuel pump which are basically 1-2 glow plugs in a metal block with a thermostat so it turns off when the fuel reaches about 70 degrees (supposed to be the best temperature for veg oil to be a decent viscosity). But you'd still have the length of time it takes for the heated oil to reach the pump and injectors where it'd idle like a bag of spanners. I've not yet done this on my 306 but I definately need to and will report with my findings once I have.

To be honest if it's filtered properly you don't need to change fuel filters that often, I've done mine twice in about 15k miles of veg oil motoring, but both times I felt no improvement so I don't think I actually needed to. And the filters are only a few quid from halfords with a trade card.

I get my oil from a local pub that my mate works at, they usually either bin it or have to get someone to get rid of it, so it's fine by them (and me) if I take it

Basically what I do is get the tubs of oil from my mates pub, set up a few barrels with a sieve and jay-cloth in the sieve, and then pour the oil through it, you have to come back loads but we don't mind doing it. Oh and it needs to be done at the same temperature as it would be in the car, ie, outside temperature. I know some people do a similar thing but with a bed sheet, which allows you to pour 10-20 litres on at once and wander off, that's your best bet if you've got the room for bigger barrels.

Once you've done that you need a filter set up thta gradually gets finer, I use an 80 micron washable filter, followed by a 30, 20, then 5 micron filter that you just chuck away once it's dirty/blocked.

Let me know if you need to know anything else.

Unread post by **Dommo** » 30 Dec 2009, 18:47

New plan, hopefully I'll be going to see an Activa tomorrow. I'll run it with the CT engine and consider changing it for a 2.1TD if I struggle to afford to run the thing. Insurance is only (

) £300 a year more.

It's £700 with a brand new front ram from citroen, not yet fitted though. He says the rear electrovalve cover is leaking too but he has one used off an XM for £25 (do these fit??).

He's also bought those little bushings that cost a couple of quid for it.

From what he said, the stop light takes about 20-30 seconds to go out, and the car takes probably a minute to rise up to normal height, does this sound normal?

Cheers.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 30 Dec 2009, 18:49

Seems worthwhile if you have a free source of it, but sounds quite a lot of work to get it into the right state to be used. How often do you get mor eoil and filter it? Suppose it depends on how many miles you do.

Do you have to use more diesel to vegi oil in the winter and you can use mre in the summer or doesnt it work like that?

Is performance the same as running on diesel? And consumption, does it consume more vegi oil than diesel?

I was thinking about doing that when i was looking for a Xantia few months ago. Though it sounds like a lot of work to me

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 30 Dec 2009, 18:51

Where have you found that one Dom? Any pictures? S1 or 2?

How much is insurance for you? How old are you? (sorry, im full of questions tonight arnt i

running an activa is something id love to do though)

TCT is a good, reliable engine, bit juicey though, ours would do around 25-30 at best really.

Unread post by **Dommo** » 30 Dec 2009, 18:55

Citroenmad wrote:Where have you found that one Dom? Any pictures? S1 or 2?

How much is insurance for you? How old are you? (sorry, im full of questions tonight arnt i running an activa is something id love to do though)

TCT is a good, reliable engine, bit juicey though, ours would do around 25-30 at best really.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1999-CITROEN-XANT ... 2eaa24d72c

I'm 20 so insurance is a rip off in most cars

It's about an hour-hour and a half from me.

With WVO MPG is about the same, and yeah you can run more WVO in summer than in winter. Performance also seems about the same in my car.

Edit - and it's about 600 quid to insure my 306, so approx 900 for the activa.