Fuel priming query

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Wookey
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Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

HI people - I've been far too busy building an extension/new improved garage for the last couple of years to do any car-spannering worth mentioning, so of course the poor machine is due some fettling.

It was fine last week (modulo a couple of minor things that could be better), but yesterday it wouldn't start. Coughed and sputtered a bit but that was all. Odd. That usually mean fuel starvation in my experience (especially if running on biodiesel which tends to bung up your fuel filter). As the last fuel filter change was 10,000 miles ago (almost exactly 2 years) I thought I should do that anyway and see if it fixed things. I haven't used any biodiesel for over a year, probably more like 2 so it shouldn't be too mucky.

So I changed fuel filter, which didn't look terrible, but the housing is lives in did have a lot of crap in the bottom. I did my best to clean all that out (although it's very hard to do completely, at least in-situ). Put it back together, primed the in-line bladder, but car still won't start - indeed, no signs of ignition, so worse than before I started working on it.

So - I checked solenoid was still working by cracking open the injection pipes. They do all spurt, but one seems very 'foamy'. Does that mean I've got a load of air in the pump? I've never had any trouble priming before, even though people say it can be a pain. I can only crank for so long before the battery needs topping up (poor thing). Is there anything else I should do/check? Is it useful to undo the banjo at the IP inlet and crank (to check for fuel/bubbles there), or does that just let air in? Is there a way of pushing fuel (and thus bubbles) round the system other than cranking the engine? I can't remember if there is any pump other than the IP? If that's the only one then it's sucking on the inlet side right?

I'll check the glow plugs, because of course if one of those has gone it won't be helping (but remember it was starting fine last week). I last checked (and replaced 2) in sept 2010.

This is probably a bit of a FAQ, sorry. I'm mostly checking about the 'foamy' outflow at the injector union, and for anythig I've forgotten as I'm hopelessy out of practice on cars, having only been thinking about buildings and computers for the last 2 years.

Oh the vehicle is a 1997 Peugeot Expert 1.9D with a 1994 Xantia TD engine in it.

Cheers.
Wookey
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

OK. One glow plug is in fact dead, but clearly that's not the only problem. Currently letting the battery charge back up.
Wookey
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

Well. I've put the new glow plug in, check there is voltage at the glow plus (about 10.5 which I guess is normal under load), checked I am getting fuel at the tops of all 4 injectors, charged batt to full and spent another few goes trying to start. Nothing. Not a sausage.

I read that it's a bad idea trying any sort of starter fluid or WD40 on IDI diesels. Is that right? It would give me a clue if my problem is indeed fuel or something else. Or am I better getting a tow and see if starts in a mile or 2? (need to find someone to help with that).

There's not that much to go wrong on diesels, especially with no prior clues. I still suspect a fuel issue of some sort. What would you do next?
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Peter.N. »

A short squirt of Easystart won't do it any harm and it will confirm that the mechanics of the engine are OK, if you have fuel going in, the timing is correct and you have good compression it should start. If fuel is being injected but not burnt you will have white smoke from the exhaust when tuning it over. If it fires up with easystart my guess is that you still have air in the fuel system.

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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

I do get some white smoke curling gently out of the exhaust after turning it over. OK. Guess I'll get a can of easystart and try that. I did try squirting a bit of WD40 (as I have some to hand) up the air intake (after disconnecting the turbo air-cooler pipes) but that did't do anything.
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Peter.N. »

If you are getting smoke but its not firing that would suggest low compression or incorrect timing, try it with easy start and see what happens.

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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

OK. Next installment. After a lot of turning over to try and get it going/test things I realised that a) my battery wasn't lasting very long and b) the negative lead was getting very hot at the clamp. So I bought a nice new battery (AGM as this is a camper and the battery sometimes takes discharge abuse) and made a new negative cable up from bits in the shed (peugeot wanted GBP 43 for a new cable. My new one is lots fatter.

So now I can turn over for much longer and much faster. Indeed now the positive lead is getting a bit warm so I should probably replace that too. (In both cases it seems to be corrosion where the cable is crimped into the lead clamp).

So - so far we have new fuel filter, new glow plug, new battery and new cable. Turning over is much imporved but no firing of the engine whatsoever, unless I put in some easy start. Which leaves me still suspecting contaminated fuel.

Somewhere along the way I've killed the power to the pre-heat control unit, which is now not coming on with the key - only when I touch a wire to the fuel solenoid. Spent hours tracing the wiring and finding my Russek manual to be not quite right. Still haven't found exactly what's wrong, but traced it to somewhere between engine bay harness input to fuse box and ignition switch. Just put a wire in from a suitable point (fan circuit, Fuse 18, which I'd already used for my second battery circuit) in order to get it working for further testing.

So I did some more diagnostics as follows:

Checked glow-plug voltage/timing again after above wiring faff.

Got a new jerry can of Fuel and connected Fuel input pipe to that, with fuel return pipe going to another jerry can. Hand bulb pumps OK. flushed fuel through. Comes out of IP same green colour it went in. Can still doesn't start (or even cough).

Removed an injector and mounted it in space - After 20 seconds to blow air through I got a nice misty fuel spray out the end - so the pump is working and the injector is working a nd not blocked. Not tested the other 3 yet.

I tried to pump fuel out of tank using spare fuel pump I have but it seems to have bunged up in a year or two of disuse - probably full of solidified biodiesel :-(.

Used hand bulb to pump soome fuel though and that comes out looking nice green colour and not murky.

However, collecting fuel where it comes out of the IP it is brown and murky and does not smell like diesel. So I think I really do have a fuel contamination problem. But trying to empty the IP by turning the engine overis going to take forever one drop at a time. How can I drain it to be sure I've got rid of the crap stuff. How do garages do this when someone misfuels?

My old C15 CAV pump had a big cap on the lower side that was used for timing and would let all the fuel out. I see no such thing on the bosch pump I've got. I think it's a 'VE' type. It certainly looks an awful lot like this: http://www.dieselveg.com/Bosch%20Cummings%201.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So how can I drain it? I suppose taking out the glow plugs/injectors and turing over with no compression would get me a lot more pumping for given battery power. (and also let me test all of them properly).

Anyway at least I finally have something that looks like a reason for this saga of not-working. Hopefully it hasn't done the pump any harm. Advice on how to flush the pump would be most welcome.
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

So I took out 3 glow plugs and one injector (leftmost glow plug is ridiculously hard to get out), so now I can turn over with no compression which means I get an awful lot more turning over per battery charge. This way I can slowly dribble fuel out. The stuff that comes out is a creamy/light brown emulsion - looks a lot like runny sperm. Diesel flots on top of it and is clearly imiscible. So I presume it's water. I've got a photo I can upload later.

I pulled some out with a syringe and thin tube at the input banjo point. There is some kind of sensor bolted on to a port at the bottom at the front. I removed the pipe to this and then unbolted it and flushed out a bit more fuel here. Mostly clean, but a bit of spunk came out.

Sampling at the injectors I flushed maybe 100ml through and after leaving to settle overnight it seem like that might be as much as 80% diesel by now. Will that burn?

Ideally I'd keep going until it comes out clear and green, same as it goes in. But presumably if I could get the engine to run then I could drive about and that would push fuel through much more effectively than using the starter.

Thing is, if the IP has had lots of water in it, will it all be flushed out by use or will some sit in the bottom, corroding it evertually? - it's already been sat around for a few weeks like this, since it broke. I don't really want to take the pump off and have to do the belt and timing and everything if it's not necessary. How many miles/litres might it take to decide the thing was flushed?

I still wonder how garages deal with this when someone has miusfueled - how does one flush the IP?
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by Wookey »

Hmm, seems no-one knows the answer to this question?

Well I finally got it going! Once the fuel coming out of the IP was about 90%+ diesel I finally got it to go with a bit of help from a whiff of easy start. After 10 mins or so it stopped running roughly and would idle. Only took 3 weeks! Had to dash off to work, but was disappointed in the evg when I found that it still wouldn't start on the key. After some more faffing discovered that it would start easily with a wire direct to the solenoid, but not with the key. Checked glow plugs and solenoid were being energised. Yep. WTF? Repeated this severl time to prove it was the case. Easy start with a bit of wire. Not a sausage, not even coughing using the key. That seems really odd.

Returned the fuel supply to the main tank and then drove a few miles (in ever-increasing circles so I wouldn't be too far from home if it conked out again :-)

Seemed as if the turbo had died and it was rather noisy. Turned out the turbo pipe had fallen off as I'd forgotten to the do the jubilee up, so I know my turbo still works - it's noticeably gutless without it.

Have concluded that the not-strting-on-key issue is because the bodge wire to the fuel solenoid I fitted (taken from the fan circuit) (because the normal one wasn't working and I failed to trace where - see above) must be off when key is in the 'starter' position, but on in others. So ever since I did that key-cranking has never been going to work. That won't have been helping. Only manual 'with a bit of wire' cranking wa effective in pushing fuel through. Without an assitant this was very hard to determine because you can't be turning the key and measuring fuel solenoid voltage at the same time.

So apart from still having a at least 2 wiring issues I beleive it's working.

Ran it again this morning and it was quite rough and white-smoky. I suppose that is dregs of water which settle overnight. Hopefuly that'll all clear up with some driving about. I'll keep an eye on it.

Suggestions for things to kep an eye on would be good. Some diesel treatment stuff might be a good idea if it claims to dissolve water, as thet'll help pull any remaining out of the system. I presume the stuff is basically a surfactant?

And I'd still ike to know if my IP is likely to have a pool of water in the bootm which will eventualy corrode it if I don't take it all off and to bits...
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Re: Fuel priming query

Post by spider »

I would of replied but I sort of did not digest it all.

I have to run off for a bit but regarding the solenoid wiring if you're struggling usually the feed from the reverse light switch is suitable as (1) its not too far away and (2) on most models it is powered when the key is in 'start' position, some models cut this signal off. Check first they don't operate in the accessories position though.

I'm not 100% but I suspect the fuel in the pump will be constantly replaced and not pool simply as if it did do that derv does go off after a few months anyway so everyone's pump would be suffering...
Andy.

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02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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