405 SRDt '92 loss of power

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martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 03 Sep 2002, 21:17

Hello,
I own a 1992 405 SRDt for almost two years now, and it seems to have lost its power quit a bit. When the accelerator is floored, a loud hissing noise emerges from the rear of the car, and it belches out lots of smoke. The diesel injectors have been replaced about 6K miles ago. Later I replaced a few items trying to regain power, but all attempts failed. Things I replaced are:
* Timing belt ( and yes, timing is correct, I checked it about ten times ).
* Rubber o-rings in lid on injection pump (Rotodiesel), because of diesel-leakage.
In the beginning I could always hear the turbo kicking in when accelerating at low revs, but I can't seem to hear that sound anymore. So now I think my turbo isn't functioning properly anymore.
I am suspecting the wastegate, but I can't find any detailed information on how to adjust or fix it. I am also looking for detailed info on the pump, a Lucas DPC type.
Can anybody help me find the right information or does anyone have other suggestions on how to get my Pug back in shape again?
My 405 is due for a APK-test ( the Dutch version of mot ) and I am sure it's not going to pass it in the condition it's in now.
Thanks a lot, Martijn.

NiSk
Posts: 1422
Joined: 24 Jan 2002, 21:11
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405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by NiSk » 04 Sep 2002, 13:15

The following link leads to a complete description of the PSA diesel family and all the problems that can occur with them - facinating reading and information all diesel owners should be aware of. I think it will help you isolate your problem(s):
http://www.tramontana.co.hu/citroen/engine/diesel.html
//NiSk

martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 05 Sep 2002, 13:36

Thanks Nigel,
Although the site you recommended is a very interesting read, I still didn't find what I was looking for. I'm still searching for detailed photos and text on how to adjust the pump and the turbo.
My Dutch DIY-manual ( which I think is a 1-on-1 copy of Haynes ) doesn't contain any info. They advise not to mess with the turbo or pump, 'cause they think it's too difficult?? Not!!
Hopefully anyone reading this will provide me with some details or pics.
Thanks, Martijn

RichardW
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
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405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by RichardW » 05 Sep 2002, 15:01

Martijn,
Adjusting the turbo is not the way to go - clearly there is something worng tht needs sorting. First you need a pressure gauge - connect it to the pressure side of the turbo (a tee into the sensing line to the pump will do nicely!). Take the car for a drive and note the performance of the turbo - boost should climb steadily, and max out at around 0.8 / 0.9 bar under max load (eg climbing a hill a full throttle at 3000 rpm). If not satisfactory, take out the air filter and try again. If you do find a fault, then I think the only way to get it checked repaired is to remove the turbo from the car - an almost impossible task!
More likely is that you either have a split hose, or a loose connection on the pressure side of the turbo, that is allowing the pump to sense the boost, but the air is escaping before it gets into the engine (hence the hissing). BX's are famous for the seal between the intercooler and the inlet manifold blowing out, but this doesn't apply to 405 I think, as the intercooler is near the front of the car.
Unless the car is very high mileage / oil changes have been negelcted the turbo is unlikely to be damaged - they usually out last the engine.
Richard

martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 05 Sep 2002, 18:38

Thanks Richard,
I have a pressure gauge and intend to check the pressure today. I already checked for split hoses or loose connections, but I can't find any. By the way, I think the intercooler is at the exact same position as it is on the BX: on top of the engine. I checked the seal between the intercooler and manifold, and it looks fine. The hissing noise emerges from the rear of the car, so maybe my silencer isn't that good anymore, I'll check this first.
When testing the turbo-pressure: are you sure 0,8-0,9 bar is correct? My workshop-manual writes that a pressure of 0,7 bar at 3000 rpm is correct. I also read somewhere on the internet that the pressure of the spring in the wastegate can decrease, making an adjustment neccesary. If the turbo has to be removed it is indeed an almost impossible task. I think they should hang the French designers who placed the turbo at this almost unreachable place!
Thanx, Martijn.

RichardW
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405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by RichardW » 05 Sep 2002, 20:27

I was quoting the pressure figure from memory, so it may be lower for the 405 than the BX. See what it comes out at! It is possible that the spring could stretch and need adjusting, but your black smoke suggests that the pump is sensing the boost pressure and putting in more fuel than is necesary. You can adjust the wastegate, how depends on whether you've got a KKK or Garrett unit - IIRC KKK is easier as they have an external operating lever that is easy to get to - Garrett has an internal screw that you cannot see and have to reach for. How many km has your car covered?
There was a case recently were a guy with a GTi was having problems and eventually discovered that the woodruff key on the cam sprocket had sheared off - might be worth taking the rocker cover off and checking that the cam shaft is actually where it's supposed to be?
Fault in the exhaust shouldn't dent the performance, but will fail the APK!
Hissing noise could be dragging brake or wheel bearing perhaps?
BTW I assume you have done the obvious and changed the air and diesel filter....
I changed the head gasket in my previous BX TD and had to remove the inlet and exhaust manifolds (to get the head bolts out!!) - it was not easy even on the bench, let along with it in the car!
Richard

martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 05 Sep 2002, 20:53

I tested the pressure: it peaks at 0,65 bar at full throttle, a bit too low perhaps. I'll try to adjust it. I have done the obvious ofcourse, all filters have been replaced, hoses checked etc. The cam sprocket is in good condition: I replaced the oil seal on the righthand side of the camshaft a month ago, so I was able to take a good look at it.
The hissing noise occurs only when flooring the accelerator and when the engine revs above 3000 rpm. I don't suspect the wheelbearings or brakes are bad.
About the turbo: I'm not sure what type is fitted in my car. I think it's a Garrett, for I haven't seen any levers of any kind. I'll take a look at it this weekend!
My car has covered about 240.000 KM, about 150.000 miles.
Thanks, Martijn.
Edited by - martijn on 06 Sep 2002 07:02:37

martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 13 Sep 2002, 18:55

Almost all things have been checked:
- I adjusted the turbo pressure to about 1 bar.
- I replaced the muffler and exhaust pipe: the hissing sound has disappeared.
- The actuator screwed into the thermostat housing, controlling idle rpm has been replaced: no more black smoke.
But still not enough power!! The engine runs best when the accelerator is pushed down for 3/4, when pushed down more performance seems to decrease rather than increase.
The last thing that needs checking is the injectionpump, maybe it needs adjusting. Is it possible to adjust timing without having to buy lots of expensive equipment?

NiSk
Posts: 1422
Joined: 24 Jan 2002, 21:11
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405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by NiSk » 13 Sep 2002, 20:27

After reading your last description, it sounds like the injection timing is out, probably retarded. It is possible to adjust the timing by rotating the injection pump - there's not much movement available (fortunately - so it's difficult to over advance and damage the engine!). You'll have to read a workshop manual to deduce the correct direction to rotate the pump (engine rotation, cambelt rotation, advance, retard - it's easy to make a mistake!).
By the way, when did you change the cambelt last? getting the injection pump a notch out will ruin your performace and increase consumption. Maybe its time change . . .
//NiSk

martijn
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Sep 2002, 20:54

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by martijn » 13 Sep 2002, 20:39

I changed the belt 15.000 km's ago, and the car ran fine after I did that. Performance gradually decreased afterwards.
When I scan the internet on Rotodiesel pumps ( that's the one that's fitted on my car, too bad ), I seldom read positive stories. ( PSA should stop fitting inferior products to their cars if they want to maintain their positive reputation.)
I think something is wrong with my pump, it's the only thing I haven't checked yet. Still looking for detailed info on the DPC-pump!

spanners
Posts: 77
Joined: 10 Sep 2002, 03:29

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by spanners » 14 Sep 2002, 18:49

there should be a turbo pressure valve on the front of your pump sometimes the diaphragm wears on this unit also make sure throttle cable is reacting quickly and fully to throtle stop.

NiSk
Posts: 1422
Joined: 24 Jan 2002, 21:11
x 1

405 SRDt '92 loss of power

Post by NiSk » 16 Sep 2002, 13:24

The oracle at BX - do-it-yourself, Zeljko Nastasic, doesn't have an awfull lot of good to say about the rotodiesel pump - so the question is if you can fit a Bosch pump instead (at least it's a mechanical pump so you don't have to worry about a load of electronics to change).
//NiSk