'02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

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ekjdm14
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My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
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'02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Hi all, just managed to get PP2000 working this morning and read the codes on The Boss's 206 to see why it's dropped into limp mode. after a clearing of codes I'd thrown messing with the MAF and EGR plugs the one that keeps returning immediately is the dreaded "pre-heater relay circuit - sparkplugs(sic) permanently supplied" which I've not seen an awful lot on, but the one post I did see (unresolved) there was a suggestion that somebody else had replaced the glow plugs and the fault was cured.

I really do NOT want to start chipping bits off glow plugs if there's any other possible reason for it (I did the actuator tests on both "pre heater" and "additional heater" relays, and heard them clicking on/off as well as noticing a slight dimming of the car's display screen which would suggest to me at least that the plugs are switching OK and drawing at least some current.)

I guess it's now time to pop the airbox off and start digging down the back of the engine to see what's going on there, hopefully just a dodgy connection but we'll see. Anybody know what else could cause this fault/permanent limp mode to be flagged? Also, a rough idea of what the GP's should ohm out at would be handy. I know they'll likely be open circuit if bad but if this thing's more sensitive maybe one or two could be out of it's happy "range"?

Cheers all, Dan
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
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My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

EDIT- small update, just popped the airbox off and boy is it tight down there to access the glow plugs! can just about feel them but not see!

Anyway, for the moment I've taken a couple of multimeter readings that firstly confirm the fault code is accurate & they are live all the time the ignition is on (and about 15 seconds after switch off), so the relay is not stuck and something is telling it to activate. Also, judging by the volt drop on the line (12.75 across the battery, 9.6 between batt - and GP busbar engine off/10.9 engine running) I would think the GP's themselves are still working. (I don't have a clamp meter so no current draw measurement sadly, when time allows I'll grope round and pull the busbar off then ohm out the plugs just to rule that out hopefully.

What could be causing the GP relay to be permanently given the signal to operate the plugs though, no other faults recorded... Coolant temp sensor out of whack but not flagging a fault yet perhaps?

Further edit, live data reading shows CTS and FTS both tallied at 18c which sounds about right, only other things I can think are glow plugs or wiring now :rofl2:
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Nobody got any further ideas on this? I'm leaning toward the glowplug relay now based on the fact that (although I can hear it clicking during actuator tests) the fault is that they're permanently supplied, and the multimeter bears this out too. I'm taking a stab that the GP relay's heavy contacts are somehow disconnected by the BSM after shutdown hence why they go off a few seconds after IGN off so I feel like the contacts have maybe arc-welded themselves the morning the fault occurred (it was a cold morning and the GP light on the dash was active for a couple of seconds before startup so I know it switched them that time)

Just run a small "experiment" and disconnected the GP supply wire, and hey-presto we still have an antipollution fault but we no longer have limp home activated.

All I can think is, when the ECU sees that the plugs are being supplied and drawing current when they shouldn't be, it throws the limp home as a preventative measure to stop combustion temperatures getting high enough to burn them out, but when it sees they're open circuit as well then there's no need for limp home because its not trying to save the GP's any more...

Sounds reasonable to me, only reason I can think anyway for how introducing a second, further fault could "bypass" the LOS/limp mode restriction. When I feel up to the task (I.E. ear infection clears to the degree I can locate the click of the relay!) I'll get back under there and do some multimeter work at the relay plug to see if it's actually energised or if the contacts have just welded themselves.
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

OK just plucked up the enthusiasm/willpower to faff round with this electronic box of tricks called the 206 again. We have limp mode most of the time even with the GP's out of the loop and from looking at the relay I know now that there's 12v when it's pulled in & 9v when it's out. However the 9v isn't coming from dodgy contacts, but rather it's a low-current supply from further up the line, that comes in on pin 5 (I think) if the relay's multiplug.

The 9v goes completely when either the multiplug is disconnected or the ignition is switched on. Still the only fault occurring is "Spark plugs permanently supplied" :? (the more I think about it, the more I feel like it might always have shown this fault even when the car was running fine with no EML or antipollution message...

Only thing I can think now is to look at some more live data, coolant and air temp sensors seem to be accurate but maybe something else is amiss... Really not enjoying this "modern reliable electronics" lol especially when the fault code isn't more specific! Ah well, back to it...
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Live data all tallies from what I can make out, only thing that was slightly awry was the MAP sensor reads about 100Millibar higher than atmospheric (approx. 1100 Vs 1000Mbar).

Stick a DW8 in it I say lol
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

OK latest news, I caved in to the inevitable probability that it was a glow plug issue. Sliced my thumb up a bit in reaching back to the busbar without removing the combined inlet manifold/rocker cover (why, PSA?) and tested the plugs individually as I should have done previously, but I was hanging on to every hope that it was something else causing the code (after all, the code does NOT say anything about an open circuit).

Anyway, the results-: #1 9.8 Meg/Ohm #2 open #3 open #4open... So all 4 plugs dead... Onto the unsavoury task of glow plug removal from an HDi.

numbers 1, 3 and 4 came out complete but #2 lost an inch off it's tip :evil: :( Tried a tentative start/rev of the engine with the 3 complete plugs refitted and a folded blanket to arrest the tip if it fired out, but no such luck. Also tried to get a long woodscrew to bite without success, so it's looking like a head off job. Stupid design if ever there was one IMO, having the GP's so long and thin not to mention so close fitting in their bore. [-X

Going to do all I can to avoid lifting the head as it's a job I can do without, I might try removing the injector and see whether the broken tip can be driven into the cylinder & fished/sucked out through the injector hole. Got a lot of thinking over to do.
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
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Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by Peter.N. »

That's the longest solo thread I have ever seen Dan. :-D

Normally Hdi's don't rely on the glow plugs unless you live in the arctic but yours certainly don't sound to be in very good condition. If I understand you correctly and the glow plugs are on all the time it won't take very long to burn them out, so you need to get that sorted before you fit the new ones.

I have the 2.0. Hdi 206 and a 406 the same, both start instantly and I have never checked the glow plugs, the 406 has done well over 200k miles, so certainly on the 2.0. they never seem to cause a problem.

Peter
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Yes it was a bit of a runner wasn't it lol, guess it just shows how few people want to get involved in HDi glow plug problems!

The 1.4 certainly barely used them, I think it had likely been managing with just one working (the one that read 9.8meg) and the cold spell back at the beginning of March made it power up and that finished it off. I know it still starts and runs just fine with them disconnected so no real need for them starting-wise in normal temperatures.

I think I've decoded this "permanently supplied" thing... I propose that it uses a circuit similar to bulb failure detection, where it passes a low current through the plugs and looks for it to be drawn down (backed up by my look inside the relay, where it has both a low current feed through a circuit board & the high current switched feed going to the output terminal). The final GP failure being the straw that broke the camel's back, in that the detection circuit was no longer being drawn down and it threw the code. (the permanent supply I was seeing on my multimeter was in fact the low current one, the relay contacts are indeed opening as they should)

Why they couldn't have made it simple and just said that there was an open circuit I don't know. Or maybe there was just enough getting through the 9.8meg plug for it to see some sort of loop... Either way, I feel confident that new GP's will sort the issue. Just have to work on getting this damned tip out of the head!
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Ok another day another plan, after dissecting one of the non-snapped plugs and a bit of measuring of IDs and depths & I've settled on the idea of using an M4 long pattern tap to cut a small amount of thread inside the stuck tip, then screwing in a length of rod and applying either a slide-hammer or nut&sleeve puller technique to hopefully coax the little bugger out of its hiding place.

Anyway, old Bridgeport 100xM4x0.75 tap ordered for 3 quid off the bay. If it fails then not a huge loss, if not then a huge saving in time/money on a head lifting mission!
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Continuing on along this path few wish to tread... All efforts to remove the broken tip by threading/extracting, and by pushing in & fishing out the injector hole have been a failure :( The damned thing just does not want to move one way or the other, and I'm not prepared to damage the head by continuing on.

So, time to bite the bullet & lift the head... Thus far the ridiculous manifold/rocker cover is off, and there is also a problem with the camshaft which has signs of pitting on #1 exhaust lobe (far right end by the vac pump) and one other. Not sure what would have caused this but I'm not happy putting this cam back in the engine as there's at least 0.5mm material flattened off the worst one & even though the tappets have taken up the gap, the hardening is obviously gone.

Wonder if there is any knowledge of faulty hardening on any HDi camshafts? Anyhow, it's all coming apart and will be going back together better than it was. S'pose everything happens for a reason & if it weren't for the glow plug snapping I would be blissfully unaware of the cam eating itself.
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
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Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by RichardW »

Presumably if you have got the cover off, then you've got the injectors out - look on the bright side!!
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Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by EDC5 »

Just got to say well done for carrying on with this, it sounds like a nightmare.

I'm not sure what access is like on the 1.4 but on the 2.0 the glow plugs are at the back of the head, above the Turbo.... I'm not even if they can be changed in situ!

Do you have any pictures of the camshaft issue, it sounds a bit odd?
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: '02 206 1.4HDi glow plug/antipollution fault

Post by ekjdm14 »

Richard, I don't have all the injectors out yet no, just the one from #2 cylinder. The "manicover" can be removed with just the electrical & leakoff disconnected. (this is an 8v/single cam engine, I imagine the 16v injectors are through the middle of the cover). I do *think* they'll give up OK though as the car has been a gooden in all other aspects than the GP's & #2 injector did come out fine.

Ed, the glow plugs are on the back yes & access is knuckle-skinningly tight with the manifold/cover in place but they could have been done with minimal stripping down if only one of the beggars hadn't left it's tip behind. The exhaust mani' and turbo on the 1.4 is on the front so at least none of that to contend with!

I will try and get a pic of the worst 2 cam lobes yes, it really looks to me like it's had corrosion on it at one point & it's eaten through the hardening. Whatever the score, it ain't going back in when I reassemble the engine as it's in a bad way. Sticking at it is all I can do really as it's been a good car to us & Emma really likes it too, I'm choosing to look on this as an opportunity to go through the top end and make sure everything is in order as well as maybe doing a few small mods to increase efficiency/longevity seeing as it's a "long term" car for us. :)

(I wonder, seeing as it's up for replacement... Are there any other camshaft options for the littlest HDi? Shame they never made an NA version as that'd be a likely donor a-la XUD style. Getting it breathing a little better off-boost would be nice as it's gutless until the turbo spins up & eventually I'd like to replace the turbo itself with something slightly larger that won't run out of puff and be restrictive just as the cam wakes up.)
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
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