Diesel Pump change - the yellow key blinks

[Albireo]

Hello!
(I hope I can explain that on english)
I have a Xantia 1,9TD -00 break aut. Lexia 3.0 with DiagBox (Lexia and scantool)

I think that I have problem with the sensor on the bottom on the pump.
After I seen CitroJims exemplary description of the pump http://www.eastment.net/boschpump1.htm.
I took the decision to change the pump to another similar pump I have.
I was hoping that a change of the diesel pump would solve my problem.

When at last the "new" pump is on place, a yellow key starts to flash on the dashboard and a "summer" (buzzer) began to sound...
The pump does not suck any Diesel nor. (the stop valve doesn't open).

How to get the control box to know that the pump has changed?
Have got a transponder code from Citroen based on VIN on my car.
(But I don´t know how to use it)

What options do I have?

//Jan

[CitroJim]

Hi Jan,

I'm assuming this is an S2 Xantia...

The problem you have is the immobiliser is no longer matched to the CPH and transponder... Sadly they cannot be reprogrammed to the CPH as they are a one-time matched pair.

The only option you have is to de-armour both pumps and swap over the black immobiliser module that sits on top of the stop solenoid under the armouring...

Sorry, there's no easy solution to this one

Whatever you do it means de-armouring....

If it were an S1 Xantia with a keypad immobiliser then as long as you know the keypad code for the replacement pump it'll work as the code is stored in the pump immobiliser module. If you don't know the code you're in the same position and will need to de-armour both and swap modules.

DO NOT attempt to de-armour a pump without removing it! I have seen an engine wrecked as a result of attempting to de-armour with the pump still mounted on the engine...

[Mandrake]

A possible alternative depending on resources:

If you have access to the CPH that was paired with the replacement pump (for example the pump was taken off a scrapped car and the CPH is still in that car) then you could swap the CPH between cars as well which should avoid the need to de-armour the pump. The CPH is a small black ECU with two connectors (one black, one yellow) up behind the glove box.

However to go this route you need to choose one of the following:

1) You will need the four character confidential code (key programming code) for the scrapped car that is donating the pump and CPH. If it's an already scrapped car that you don't own you might have trouble getting this code from Citroen as theoretically they will only provide it to the registered owner. You will need to provide he VIN number of the donor car to get the confidential code. There are also some 3rd parties that will offer the code possibly without checking ownership, only checking "possession". If you can get this code you then use your Lexia to program your existing keys and fobs to the new CPH (which is easy and only takes a few minutes) then everything will work fine.

OR

2) Swap the CPH as above, but without the 4 character code you will then need the keys from the donor car so you can swap the transponder chips over to yours. Swapping the embedded chips in the keys over is possible but difficult so it may be easier to simply swap all the lock barrels and keys over wholesale if they are present and in good condition.

I don't know how difficult de-armouring the pump is but my preferred course of action if I could get hold of the 4 character code would be to swap the CPH and reprogram the keys with the Lexia. Much easier, and you still retain full immobiliser function...

[citronut]

DO NOT attempt to de-armour a pump without removing it! I have seen an engine wrecked as a result of attempting to de-armour with the pump still mounted on the engine...

what caused the wrecked engine Jim???, and were it a MK1 or 2

[CitroJim]

DO NOT attempt to de-armour a pump without removing it! I have seen an engine wrecked as a result of attempting to de-armour with the pump still mounted on the engine...

what caused the wrecked engine Jim???, and were it a MK1 or 2

It was an S1 1.9TD Malcolm...

Person attacked the armouring with a cold chisel. All the turbo piping was off and the inlet manifold was open. A small piece of armouring chipped off, flew into the inlet and got into the combustion chamber of one cylinder. It was armageddon in there...

Simon, yes, a completely valid alternative provided you have the CPH Thanks for that, it's easier than de-armourinmg any day!

[Albireo]

Thanks for all the answers!

... I'm assuming this is an S2 Xantia...
The problem you have is the immobiliser is no longer matched to the CPH and transponder...
Sadly they cannot be reprogrammed to the CPH as they are a one-time matched pair.
The only option you have is to de-armour both pumps and swap over the black immobiliser module that sits on top of the stop solenoid under the armouring...

Yes it is an S2 Xantia
Thanks for the information, that the CPH and the pump is matched.

...If you have access to the CPH that was paired with the replacement pump (for example the pump was taken off a scrapped car and the CPH is still in that car) then you could swap the CPH between cars as well which should avoid the need to de-armour the pump. The CPH is a small black ECU with two connectors (one black, one yellow) up behind the glove box....

I have access to the CPH from the scrapped car (Thank you for telling me, that it is located behind the glove box).

...1) You will need the four character confidential code (key programming code) for the scrapped car ....

What I know, was the donor car scrapped many years ago. The registration number of the car is gone from the Swedish system
Is it enough, that the person who sold this car to me, with all the parts from the scrapped car, know the VIN-number for the scrapped car?
(I have no idea right now if it is possible)
Is the name of the code I'm looking for "transponder code" (on swedish) the same as "confidential code"?
Are there other codes than the radio code with 4 characters?

...2) Swap the CPH as above, but without the 4 character code you will then need the keys from the donor car so you can swap the transponder chips over to yours. Swapping the embedded chips in the keys over is possible but difficult so it may be easier to simply swap all the lock barrels and keys over wholesale if they are present and in good condition.....

Right now I do not know if the keys and locks from the donor car came with. (Have some boxes of parts)
I have a big key with remote control and a small "normal" for my car.
Contains the little thin key a transponder?
Should look a little more on this option. But then I never get to know the "confidential code" for my car.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As I mentioned, I think my problem have with the sensor in the bottom of the pump to do.
But does anybody know what the sensor does?

//Jan

[CitroJim]

As I mentioned, I think my problem have with the sensor in the bottom of the pump to do.
But does anybody know what the sensor does?

Yes, that's the timing actuator and will have no effect on the yellow immobiliser light at all..

It's under ECU control and adjusts the timing of the pump.

If it is faulty at worst it'll make the car run poorly but will not cause a non-start.

[Albireo]

(I hope I can explain my problem)
It was possible to start the car with the old diesel pump, but the engine did not start at idle. (no problem with the glow plugs)
Once the engine starts, it spun very nicely. No problem to drive the car, but when the accelerator pedal suddenly is released, the engine can stop, or go very badly, and engine lamp goes on. (I can see the error on Lexia)

One way to get the motor running good, is to turn off the ignition and start the engine again.

Another way is to try to get the motor to spin 1600-2000rpm (it is not easy, because the engine goes bad). Turn the ignition off a short while - about 1 / 4sek and turn the ignition on again without the starter - the engine turns on and it goes nice again.

Any idea what it might be doing wrong?
(My thought was that it could be the sensor under the pump - but I may be wrong)

//Jan

[CitroJim]

Jan, what fault exactly did the Lexia report?

Sounds more like the Needle Lift Sensor on No.3 Injector may have failed.

The timing actuator on the pump is normally very reliable...

Does sound like a timing fault though...

[citroenxm]

OR
. Swapping the embedded chips in the keys over is possible but difficult so it may be easier to simply swap all the lock barrels and keys over wholesale if they are present and in good condition.

Swapping the chip IS SIMPLE! It really is, Ive done it... it is not hard at all!! The hardest part is getting the Press Pin out of the PLIPPER that holds the key blade in place!

Once the Blade is seperate from the PLIP is simple!

[Albireo]

...Sounds more like the Needle Lift Sensor on No.3 Injector may have failed.
The timing actuator on the pump is normally very reliable... Does sound like a timing fault though...

Thank you CitroJim! (and other)

In the beginning I had two error (I can't find the Error Codes from Lexia now).
One was (freely translated) "signal from the needle lift sensor weak" 0.7V
- I swapped out the injector no3, to another old injector, and got 1V. (but I felt no difference).

The other was (freely translated) "the regulation of the start of injection"
The value was approximately 0-1 degrees, when the engine was spinning fine, and the error temporary.
But when the engine goes bad (with gray exhaust cloud with unburned diesel),
the value was 5-10 degrees (even 25 degrees if I don´t remember wrong) and the error permanent.

Do you still believe that there is something wrong with the injector no 3?
How do I proceed?
//Jan

[CitroJim]

There are two tests you can do on the Needle Lift Sensor Jan. One is to measure its resistance. It should read around 100 ohms if it is good.

The other thing to do is disconnect it with the engine running. It should cause the engine not to change markedly. If there is no change then it is potentially faulty.

Please be aware also that timing faults can be caused by low fuel pressure due to fuel starvation caused by a blocked fuel filter or the tank pickup strainer or because of air leaks on the fuel lines. Air leaks are a very common problem on this engine.

This happens because the fuel is used as an hydraulic medium inside the pump to control timing and if there's air in the fuel or it's not at the right pressure due to flow restrictions the timing cannot correctly adjust.

Putting a piece of clear (transparent) hose between the fuel filter and the pump can show if there is excessive air in the fuel.

One very common cause is perished leakoff lines - the small pipes daisy-chained between the injectors..

[Albireo]

Thanks for your time!

There are tow tests you can do on the Needle Lift Sensor Jan. One is to measure its resistance. It should read around 100 ohms if it is good.
The other thing to do is disconnect it with the engine running. It should cause the engine not to change markedly. If there is no change then it is potentially faulty...

I measured the resistance of each injector sensor, and both sensors were measured to about 98 ohms. As I can see, no problem with the resistance, but Lexia showed higher voltage (1V) on the second injector.

Please be aware also that timing faults can be caused by low fuel pressure due to fuel starvation caused by a blocked fuel filter or the tank pickup strainer or because of air leaks on the fuel lines. Air leaks are a very common problem on this engine. This happens because the fuel is used as a hydraulic medium inside the pup to control timing and if there's air in the fuel or it's not at the right pressure due to flow restrictions the timing cannot correctly adjust.
....

Interestingly, the first thing I noticed was some air in the fuel.
I placed a spare tank with diesel, in the engine compartment that was connected direct to the diesel filter.
Experienced no improvement, still about as much air was sucked into the pump.
I cleaned the fuel gauge down in the diesel tank. (My car has no electric pump in the tank and no hand pump on the diesel hose to the engine) and the diesel filter was replaced.
What I discovered was, that there was vegetation in the tank around the fuel gauge, and wonder if it may be vegetation in the diesel pump after the filter too.
(the back of swedish organic diesel). Have added a fuel additive in the diesel, to prevent further growth.

Putting a piece of clear (transparent) hose between the fuel filter and the pump can show if there is excessive air in the fuel....

I did this and in the beginning it was a lot of air, but it turned out that the air came into the hose connection to the diesel filter. This was terminated when the connection was tight.
However, when the vehicle is stationary for a few days / one week, Have there been a bubble of air in the tubing.

One very common cause is perished leakoff lines - the small pipes daisy-chained between the injectors..

When I worked with the injectors, became some of these hoses broken. However, I had not original hose, so I used vacuum hose to this. (is not as steady, but I can not see any leaking diesel.)

What do you think?
Is the problem still air in the diesel pump?
or the diesel pump has vegetation / dirt so it may not be the pressure it should have?
loses pressure when the engine standing still?
"perished leakoff lines"?

But how can the problem be solved by a system reboot?
Feels like something electrical
//Jan

[Albireo]

The other thing to do is disconnect it with the engine running. It should cause the engine not to change markedly. If there is no change then it is potentially faulty

I forgot to answer.
When the injector sensor is disconnected when the engine is running. The engine is affected direct and starts to go bad.

Which sensor in diesel pump may be faulty for me?
Is there anything I can do, or can check, while I have the pump out of the car.
(wish not to have to take out the diesel pump again )

Struggling with the steel bolt to possibly move the immobilizer to the new diesel pump ...

//Jan