4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

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garyfitz123
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4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by garyfitz123 »

hi....my auto C5 has suddenly developed quite a loud whine which I think is coming from the gearbox. It is rev related rather than speed related, and seems worst when accelerating. when the box drops into top gear it seems to die down alot. Any ideas as to the culprit? There is 143K on the car so I know that I will need a gearbox overhaul in the near future but just trying to prolong the inevitable.....
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Mandrake »

Will wait for Citrojim to come along and comment on this since he's the resident expert on the 4HP20, but I would say the prognosis is not good :(

In fact I would suggest if you have another car to use to stop driving it immediately and certainly don't drive it any long distances as it will very likely go bang and strand you somewhere. From what I've read a loud engine RPM related whine is the oil pump on the verge of failing.

One thing that might be worth doing is to check for any oil leaks on the gearbox and check the oil level to make sure its not low in level. There is a thread by Ben82 recently on checking the oil level on late model 4HP20's that lack a dipstick. One common source of leaks (which has happened to me) is the banjo coupling on the left hand side of the gearbox - remove the wheel arch liner beside the front left wheel and you will see a pipe connecting to the side of the gearbox. Check this for signs of leaks.
Simon

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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Ben82 »

The problem with checking the oil on the C5's 4HP20's is you either need a car lift, or be lucky with a camber in the road that allows you to have the car up on the kerb, but it means the car is still dead level (as with Bandit12's). I guess at a push you could raise the car up on 4 axle stands.

For checking the oil level you'll need 1l of LT71141 (opie oils has pretty good prices, and is used a fair bit on this forum).

The problem is, if you're going through the hassle of checking the oil level, you might as well drain the existing oil, and put new in (so buy 5ls), as the harder part is the level check.

Tools you'll need:
Spirit Level!!!!
A Lexia (or someone nearby with one - there's a thread in the supersticky forum for member locations)
A 8mm hex bit on a ratchet for the drain plug.
A 6mm hex bit on a ratchet (an allan key might work) for the level plug.
Needle nose pliers (or a small hose clip plier) for getting the breather plug and cap off.
Hammer (with something suitable to hit the breather plug back in).
Philips screwdriver for the jubilee clip on the airhose (you need to take the airbox out to get to the breather hole).
Funnel and some tubing (at most 8mm).
Drain pan, with some way of measuring the amount of oil that comes out.

Prep (i.e. before starting):
Check that you have somewhere dead flat to work with.
Identify the locations of the breather plug (easy to spot, as it's got a blue cap on it - maybe covered in gunk though), drain plug (easy - bottom of the gearbox, only place an 8mm hex will fit in) and level plug (hardest - back of the gearbox, can only get to from right under the car. pics over here (from a V6, but the 2.2HDI is very similar): " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Clean off the area around the breather hole before taking the plug off, you don't want any of the gunk and stuff going into the gearbox :)
Loosen the drain and level plugs slightly (basically ensuring you can actually turn them, and do them up again, but only enough so it's easy for you to undo them again).
Take the car for a 5 minute spirited drive (preferably with the lexia plugged in and monitoring the gearbox oil temperature).
Ideally you want to be back and about ready around the 55C mark.

Process:
Engine running, turn off all consumers (AC, fans, radio, etc etc)
(Citroen say to have the handbrake off for this part but we didn't!): Foot brake off, and move the gear level through the gear a few times, and then return it to P.
Get the pan under the car (and ideally something like a big piece of cardboard so you're not getting the place in a mess).
Stop the engine, when it reaches around 59-61C.
Undo the drain plug, and let it drain out.
After it stops dripping, put the plug back in. Measure the amount of oil you get out.
You now want to fill it up with the amount of oil that comes out PLUS 0.5litres... (e.g. if you get 3.7l out, put 4.2l in)
Get the airbox out, the breather plug and cap off.
Put the tubing in the hole, and the funnel on the other end, and start filling it up, it takes a while, about 5mins a litre.

Now for the really fun part: level checking (this is where it varies alot to the Xantia one - including the extra 0.5l above)
Ensure the car is dead level. get the pan back under the gearbox, this time near the level plug.
Start the engine, again make sure there's no consumers, run through the gears again, and keep an eye on the gearbox oil temperature (it should be around 45C now since you've put unheated oil in). What you want to do is to bring it up to around 55C, so just wait until it does.
keep the car running: Once it reaches that temperature, undo the level plug. Oil should come out, if it doesn't, put the level plug back in, stop the car, and top it up with another 0.5l, and go back to the previous step.
Once the oil is only dripping occasionally (should reach this stage before the oil temp gets to 60C), put the level plug back in.
If on the first try only about 0.5l comes out then you can tell your oil level was good (if much less comes out, or you needed to add more, then it was low).


It is best done with someone else at hand to do the readings of the gearbox temp, and to help you remember the steps too :)
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Mandrake »

All that hassle because they decided to delete the dipstick on later 4HP20's :roll:
Simon

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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by garyfitz123 »

Thanks for that. Have been quoted 2200 euro to get an exchange gearbox fitted so I mite try that. Where do you put the spirit level to make sure the car is dead level?
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Ben82 »

garyfitz123 wrote:Thanks for that. Have been quoted 2200 euro to get an exchange gearbox fitted so I mite try that. Where do you put the spirit level to make sure the car is dead level?
Driver's door sill for front to back, we had a large spirit level that we could put across the whole front of the car to check left to right.

2200€ is quite a lot of money, but considering the work involved it's probably not too bad. Depends on the condition of the gearbox I guess, but you'd probably want to make sure it is the gearbox before spending that kind of money. :)
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by garyfitz123 »

what else could it be? The noise does sound like an oil pump thats being starved of oil...
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Mandrake »

Blocked filter ? Unfortunately the filter can't be removed in-situ - its a gearbox out and partial strip down to replace it, at which point you might as well do an overhaul with the mileage its done. Is that 143k miles or kilometres by the way ? Since you said Euro's I'm guessing its kilometres.
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by garyfitz123 »

143K miles...yea was thinkin it was the filter myself. Very bad design that the filter cannot be removed for cleaning!
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Mandrake »

Oh miles not kilometres. :shock: At 143k miles with a loud whine from the oil pump your gearbox is well and truly on borrowed time I would say. You could try doing an oil change or two but it could just be a waste of time... overhaul or replace is probably the only option. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(
Simon

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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by garyfitz123 »

Okay so I have sourced a 2nd hand gearbox with 75,000 miles on it with a torque convertor for £250. What should I look for in it, or is there anything i should do before I put it into the car.
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by jgra1 »

sorry to hear that :(

sold one a few months ago for £100..

make sure it comes from the right car.. different ratios for HDi's and V6's

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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Mandrake »

Different ratios from different marques (eg Peugeot) as well ? I wonder what the compatibility is of a 4HP20 from a Peugeot with the same engine.
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by jgra1 »

should be identical I think Simon..
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Re: 4hp20 gearbox has developed a whine

Post by Ben82 »

Pretty sure Bandit12 said from his research into the 4HP20 that he was surprised to find that the 2.2HDI and the V6 had the same gear ratios. Could be wrong though :)
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