HDi Picasso down on power

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HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

The latest in the saga of our Picasso..... it's down on power - I know many will say being an HDi 90 it was never 'up' on power, but it has definitely lost its get up and go - best way to describe it would be a 1.9TD Xantia with a split in the boost sensing pipe. There don't appear to be any other symptoms, no EML, MPG about the same, not smoking, no change in starting, no run on, no obvious brake dragging, although I forgot to have a feel when we came in just now.

I'm thinking MAF, but service.citroen lists a different part number for the Picasso to the Xantia - doesn't mean of course that it won't 'fit' for test purposes.... =D> I presume there is some sort of boost pressure sensor but I don't know where- there are 2 vac solenoids on the bulkhead, EGR and boost pressure I think. Might be time to invest in a Lexia. Or a new car :twisted:
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by Lighty »

Best to get it on a Lexia, depends how low powered it is, sometimes a MAF doesnt show up, doesnt mean its not at its best. Could do with a friend to swap one with.
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by wheeler »

Theres no boost pressure sensor on the 90 bhp only the 110 has one.
Might sound silly but are the brake lights sticking on ?
The 2 vac solenoids are for the EGR valve & the other is for the EGR throttle butterfly. Again only the 110bhp has a boost control solenoid.
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

Thanks gents.

I know about the brake lights, pretty sure they are not staying on, but I will check! I took the MAF out and cleaned it with carb cleaner, and it seemed better afterwards - but that may be subjective! It's not completely flat, but there is a definite lack of go at lower revs - find yourself having to change down to get it to pull, say under 35mph in 3rd (ie about 2500 rpm - difficult to tell without a rev counter :evil: ). My sister is not far away, and she has a Xsara HDi which probably has a similar MAF - although service.citroen seems to show a different one than fitted to our car anyway.... :?:
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

Looks like deffo the MAF - put the one out of the Xantia on and it will now pull the skin off the rice pudding! The only difference appears to be that the Xantia one has a flange on it and it bolts to the air filter lid, whereas the Xsara one fits into the pipe with jubilee each end. For less MAF the Citroen price is £165 vs £112 for the Xantia one :evil: :?: The Xantia one fits no bother, so I don't think I'll be chasing down a Xsara one!
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by CitroJim »

Richard, this is timely :-D I'm off to look at a Picasso with a 2.0 HDi suffering the same problem on Sunday so thanks for that... Useful to know I can pop a Xantia one on as a test...
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

The Xantia one is the same size, it just has a flange on one end and no ribs on the tube - it fits in place fine though, and there is no sign of the EML - it goes much better though! I found a seller on e-bay knocking them out for £35 delivered - I know there is talk of 'fake' MAFs being rubbish, but they offer a money back and 1 year guarantee, and are UK based, so can't go far wrong. Going to punt ours in the next few months anyway, and upgrade to a C4 Grand Pic, so as long as it lasts long enough for that, job's a good un! Be interested to know if you can pick it up on the Lexia, or work out what's wrong with it.
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by CitroJim »

RichardW wrote: Be interested to know if you can pick it up on the Lexia, or work out what's wrong with it.
I will report back Richard. I'll go in Rattiva and then I can compare what the Lexia says on mine compared to the sick Picasso...

It'll be good to hear how these more reasonably priced MAFs work too...
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

Just bought one off the bay: Picasso MAF

Bought the 'right' one in the end, £40 vs £35 - will post up how it performs once it arrives.
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by CitroJim »

That's a good find Richard :-D

I popped my Lexia on Rattiva today and witnessed an airflow of between 270 units* at idle and around 750-800 units at 3,000 rpm off-load.

I then did the same on Chris570's HDi and saw more like 600 units at idle and about 750-800 units at 3,000 rpm off-load.

So, a different reading between two cars at idle and I don't know which is absolutely correct. I was surprised to notice that Rattiva (on a W plate) and Chris's on a V plate have very different ECU software revisions despite being close in age and both being 110 HDIs. So much so that the Lexia display on mine looks totally different to Chris's...

* I cannot recall what the airflow units are now :oops: I will make more of a note when I next go Lexia'ing tomorrow...
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by wheeler »

CitroJim wrote: I popped my Lexia on Rattiva today and witnessed an airflow of between 270 units* at idle and around 750-800 units at 3,000 rpm off-load.

I then did the same on Chris570's HDi and saw more like 600 units at idle and about 750-800 units at 3,000 rpm off-load.

So, a different reading between two cars at idle and I don't know which is absolutely correct.
270 mg/cp @ idle is about right for a 2.0lite engine if the EGR system is working correctly, on the other you tested car has the EGR valve been disabled/blanked off ?
If you have the engine at idle (and warm) you should get around 240 - 290 ish mg/cp, if you pull the vac pipe off the EGR valve when its running you should see the airflow jump up to about 500 mg/cp.

*
CitroJim wrote:I cannot recall what the airflow units are now :oops: I will make more of a note when I next go Lexia'ing tomorrow...
Airflow is measured in mg/cp (mg per stroke in english) 8-)
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent!

Thanks Wheeler, very much appreciated :-D Yes, Rattiva does have EGR still connected and operational but I'm not sure about the other HDi. More than likely disabled I expect...

Is seeing a change in reading on disconnection of the EGR a good and valid test of the MAF?
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by wheeler »

CitroJim wrote:Is seeing a change in reading on disconnection of the EGR a good and valid test of the MAF?
It's not 100% hard evidence that the MAF is ok but its a very good guide, it shows that its detecting the increased airflow when the EGR is shut so you have at least 2 good reference figures.
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by CitroJim »

Last weekend I did a diagnosis on a 2.0 HDi Picasso that had gradually been getting less and less powerful over time and saw the MAF output klooked more or less Ok at idle but moved little when revving the engine up to 3000rpm. The owner swapped the MAF today for one he bought from the place you recommended Richard and he tells me the car now has an entirely new lease of life...

I diagnosed a Pug 206 with a 1.4HDi (8HX) engine and on that the MAF moved very little but that may have been more to do with a split hose between the MAF and the turbo! Interestingly the MAF looked identical to that fitted to the 2.0 HDi engines.

The owner too said the car felt very sluggish but then he is more used to a V6 Xantia...
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Re: HDi Picasso down on power

Post by RichardW »

Yes, I ftted the new MAF yesterday and power, such as it was, is restored. We'll see how long he 'cheap' MAF lasts, but it came quickly, and does the job - I can afford 5 of those before we get to the price of a Citroen one! Seller is recommended!
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