LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PLEASE

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galonki
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LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PLEASE

Post by galonki »

Hi, a little while back my Citroen C5 2003 2.0 HDi 110bhp has a suspension fluid leak in a small hose near one of the wheels.

I took it to local mechanic who changed the hose, and refilled fluid which was completely empty.

Out of interest i checked to see my suspension fluid level a couple of days ago to see whether any had leaked and luckily non had. :)

Here comes the bad bit:

I noticed that the hydraulic fluid in my tank was Green which is known as the LHM fluid. I know from researchin my C5 takes LDS which is orange and they are both completely different.

The car and suspension has been fine for about 3 months which was when this liquid was filled.

Is this really bad?
Has it damaged anything or likely to damage anything?
What is the best thing to do now?

Can i continue to drive the way it is without breaking suspension system?

Thank you so much.
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Post by myglaren »

Welcome to the forums galonki!

It is a bit of an OH Dear!
One of our other members (citroenmad) had the same problem which resulted in the fluid frothing and being ejected. The fluid is common to the power steering as well as suspension.

You need to return the car to them and have the fluid drained and replaced with LDS only. It does state this on the reservoir!

There is a bit of a procedure that must be followed to do this that they need to be aware of. There is a .pdf at http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/biuletyny/
The relevant one is (2005) C5_C8, page 311 and thereabouts.
galonki
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LHM inside LDS tank Citroen C5

Post by galonki »

Myglaren thanks for your quick response, i have found the post by citroenmad was really helpful.

My local mechanic is a doughnut don't trust him, and i know he will excuse his way out of changing it.

I am know thinking about draining the LHM and replacing with LDS myself,
doesn't sound to hard of a task. Or is it?

In my case my situation is slightly different because i don't have a mix of LHM and LDS as citroenmad did; which is maybe what caused foaming for him (frothling).

My ultimate question which i would like to answer is whether leaving the LHM in the system long term likely to break anything?

I mean i have been using it for 3 months and everything seems fine.

I also would like to add something which i think may be relevant to my situation.

My cambelt + pump was changed around 10,000 miles ago ; so maybe that's why i have not had problems since my pump is quite new.

But i think i am beginning to see people mentioning PUMP and WRONG fluid type.

So am i right to say that the LHM will ruin my PUMP or will it last till the next required change interval?
Or is this theory of mine irellevant?

Thank you so much for your replies; just one response and leads to so much progress.

Thanks. :)
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Post by myglaren »

The pump changed with the cam belt would almost certainly be the water pump.

For the LDS there are two pumps, one electric for the suspension, that is below the LDS reservoir. The other for the power steering that is driven by the auxiliary (serpentine) belt.

As far as I am aware there is no current knowledge of how the system is affected by substituting LHM for LDS but you can be fairly certain that there is a good reason for Citroen saying that ONLY LDS should be used.

If it damages the seals then repairs could be extremely expensive. Damage to the pumps more so, especially the suspension pump.

I would inform the garage that while they probably acted in good faith filling the system with LHM then they are responsible for any faults that occur and for flushing and refilling with LDS. It is hardly your fault that they didn't check first to ensure they knew what they were doing and it does say on the reservoir LDS ONLY!.

Before acting precipitously, wait for wheeler and cachacerio to add their opinions and insights as they know far more than I on this subject.
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Post by KP »

Try ringing Plaides for some advice.

I would say if the info i have heard about LDS and LHM is correct then as long as they aren't mixed that they should work fine in either system.

Something i looked and thought about a while back was taking my HP out of the suspension circuit and using an electrical one from a C5 with hydractive 3+ suspension.
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Post by mezuk04 »

I would certainly take the car back to the garage, I believe the LDS is fairly expensive (but not too sure), doesnt seem right that you should have to cover the cost in any way.

Demand they sort it and then its probably best not to use them again!!!!! 8-)
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Post by Citroenmad »

Was your suspension fluid totally empty? I dont mean just in the tank but around the system? Unless the system was flushed i would bet there is still LDS in the system.

Since you have read my thread about the problems i had with LDS and LHM mixed you probably already know what might happen.

Im not sure if using LHM on its own would damage anything, im sure it would do somehting. There will be a reason why Citroen changed from LHM to LDS for the C5s.

The Citroen specialist who i use said prolonged use can damage the system. He has replaced a few pumps due to the wrong fluid being used. Im not sure if this fluid was mixed or LHM only.

I used my car for around 3 months before it developed a leak (i didnt know there was LHm in the system before the leak happened). White foam was leaking out of a pipe connection. After i removed the top on the LDS tank the pump was very noisey and would nt raise or lower the car as air had got into the system.

Ive not had any problems since the system was flushed through and new LDS used. My local Citroen indy said it shouldnt cause any further problems.

I wouldnt be leaving in the LHM though, LDS is not very expensive and is what should be in there. Get it changed at your first opportunity and avoid future costly repairs.

I dont think its really known for sure as there doesnt seem any hard evidence of what will happen to a LDS system running on LHM. But damage to spheres, pumps and seals have all been mentioned before. Its not worth risking for the sake of the price of new LDS.

My Local indy charged me £110 to flush the system, new LDS and to bleed the system.
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Post by KP »

I cant imagine the spheres would damage due to using LHM.

maybe mixed LHM and LDS but for the french guys who have made adapters up and used the grey spheres they haven't reported any issues since from what i could find, only a slightly improved ride IIRC.
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Post by cachaciero »

Hmm........! How interesting. :-)

After three months and nothing bad has happened? well at least that proves that in an emergency LHM is an acceptable substitute.:-)
The only long term ill efect that could possibly happen is seal deterioration IF the seal material is not compatible with a mineral based oil my gut feel is that if they hav'nt deteriorated after three months then they probably arn't going to Pliedes may have a take on this.
One thing I would say is that LDS "feels" a lot more slippery than LHM that's a strange thing to say about oil and it is purely subjective based upon percieved effort required to push a metal shaft through tubular bearings seems to go very easy with LDS bit harder with mineral oils including LHM but this is very non scientific :-)

Personally I would be inclined to change it but I wouldn't put the job on my must do today list.

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Post by mooseshaver »

Can you find out what was put in? The Comma version of LDS is green, they just use a confusing colour for the dye, but its fine to use.


Additional: The stuff I had was Comma Hydraulic Fluid CHF 11S Central Hydrulic Fluid.
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Post by myglaren »

mezuk04 wrote:I would certainly take the car back to the garage, I believe the LDS is fairly expensive (but not too sure), doesnt seem right that you should have to cover the cost in any way.

Demand they sort it and then its probably best not to use them again!!!!! 8-)
I paid <£7 a litre for LDS at the CCC Northern. The same guy will likely be at the DS rally over the weekend.
Otherwise it is around the same price as LHM, depending on where you source it.
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Post by galonki »

Wow guys thank you so much for all your responses; i got a feeling when we are through anyone who ever experiences the same problem will understand what to do from reading the thread which you have all helped build. :)

Was your suspension fluid totally empty? I dont mean just in the tank but around the system? Unless the system was flushed i would bet there is still LDS in the system.

I dont think there is a way to know completely, all i know is that when i bought the car. Soon after, when i started the car i used to get the STOP message on the dash everytime and i fought this was just to do with engine warming up etc, since i had just acquired my first ever citroen.

The second reason why i though that is because the message would dissapear after driving for about 5miles. ( Very strange ).

Then once i decided to check the hydraulic fluid level, and although deep down i could almost see the orange shade, it was definately below minimum and i went to halfords to buy a 1ltr bottle of power steering and transmission fluid which is the only thing they had and the halfords man said it goes into my citroen. So i put the whole 1ltr and still it was below minimum, so i got worried that there may be a leak.

by the way, if i remember correctly the halfords fluid was green (at the time had no idea there were different types of fluids).

so, the next morning when i moved car, there was big oil puddle underneath so immediately i done the maths and knew it was leak somewhere. ( so since there were no puddles previously before i put in 1ltr bottle ) . i have come out with the assumption that all the fluid had leaked out.

Surprisingly i remember my citroen still lifting up fine.

so i took to local mechanic, which is no expert on citroens or hydraulic suspension but the type who undertakes everything and anything.
doughnut really (dont use him anymore).

he found a a very small fluid pipe had broken and ordered it from citroen dealer which had to be delivered from FRANCE.

he then changed and refilled.

since he is a mechanic i dont question someone about their job (big mistake).

then about 3 months after ( now ), i have decided to check if any fluid was below minimum and no everything fine no leaks.
BUT liquid is green so i ASSUME LHM.

Even if i ask him he wont remember or tell me. He will say it is the correct one im right your wrong.

by the way car lifts, lowers with no problem.

So guys i know some have suggested to get it changed which seems the most sensible option but since there is not guaranteed damage which is known to be caused,

i am truly lost, the fluid i could probably afford myself cheapest i found was ebay £11 per litre with postage included. So around £60 for 5 litres.

the changing sounds simple to some extent as in lower car, remove right wheel, splash guard remove pipe.

But does the method described in that pdf where you remove the pipe from the reservour completely flush it, or does some get left behind in elsewhere in system and is it a problem?

Because my local will charge alot for draining, refilling, bleeding.

If i was to do it myself, i dont think i could bleed it myself dont have machinery is this important or can be done without doing?

by the way if anyone is interested i called citroen dealer just to get their opinion, and they said cant be sure of damage till checked, best thing to do is drain and replace because lds should be in there.

i asked for price: £300 for labour = drain,refill,bleed + liquid 5 x £14 per litre.

so cant afford that car is only worth around £1000.

So what you guys think?

and so sorry for my essay. ;)
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Post by Sl4yer »

£300 for labour?! Any wonder no-one trusts them... :evil:

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Post by Old-Guy »

Just for the record. The legal situation in circumstances like this are that:

If someone sets up in any line of business, a customer is entitled in law to rely on the suppliers expertise in doing any work that they agree to undertake and the quality and suitability of goods for the (specified) purpose.

In the event that work is not to a competent standard or the goods are 'not fit for the purpose' or are 'not of merchantable quality' then the customer is entitled to be put back in the position that they were in before the supply of goods or services.

However, a supplier must be given a reasonable opportunity to rectify their mistake at no cost to the customer.

In practice in can be difficult to prove who said what, did what and when and/or to pursue a supplier with no real assets.

Naturally, it is always best to start by being reasonable (asking politely, not demanding) and only resorting to threats of Trading Standards and the Small Claims process if being reasonable gets you nowhere.
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Post by Dommo »

And if nothing else, it should help ensure the mechanic will check which fluid the cars take in future!
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