508 CAN bus problem

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ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

I will try, however did you found out that my VIN is included in this service action? I checked suggested free of charge service actions for my VIN, unfortunately it was sold on German market and it is not listed in my country. If it's listed then I will try to fight for "my rights" at least :-)

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It's not actually a recall as such. Recalls are usually safety-related. This is just a technical bulletin built up from known issues from customer feedback and issues they become aware of from other sources. If a customer complains of certain issues they generally run a diagnostic and check for TSBs to see if the faults are covered there.

Generally only recalls are undertaken free and there is nothing popping up under your VIN for a recall.

So this is an anomaly that they will just try and fix when you come in. I just suggested asking them in case they are in a good mood!

ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

Sure thing. Thanks a lot. I have a trusted car mechanic, but of course he is not a french car specialist, so without access to TSB he might be searching for a problem that doesn't physically exist. I'm automation electrician myself (however car electrics is a new thing to me), but without CAN bus and electrical diagrams my knowledge means nothing. I will update a situation after it will be clear what happened.

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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, no sense in replacing things unnecessarily as that becomes a waste of money - at least if you let them know you are aware of the TSB that specifically mentions these 5 codes all coming up for this specific 508 with this specific engine, then this has to apply to your car and needs to be sorted first. I hope the won't be any 'U' codes remaining after that. Do let us know how it goes.

ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

One more thing - "MANDATORY: Diagnostics must be performed with a diagnostic tool in an internet connected mode with mandatory technician identification" - is there really a difference if diagnostic interface is connected to internet? Is this just resetting faults or a real update to ECU will come together when internet connection is available? I'm just wondering how does it work, that when I reset the error codes myself with DiagBox (or FAP application) for some time the car works just fine, but later (after it gets cold?) faults appear again.

You know, I need to wait at least few days to get the car back and take it to authorized service, but in the meantime I just can't stop thinking about it.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

That's the info in the bulletin.

At the dealer, they have to connect it up to the Live PSA servers so that it can determine if the engine ECU software needs an update or not - so that message would be to the technician to ensure they are in connected mode not manual mode. To be honest they mostly connect to the live servers now anyway because there could be other things they need to update. So it's just directed at the technician and they can then also log who did what and when.

ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

The authorised service diagnosis is probably ABS/ESP pump calculator malfunction. New ABS pump module is 1200 Eur :shock: Plus job costs etc. I think about buying used pump (50 Eur), I've read that in some citroens you can replace electronics only (without touching hydraulics). Worth trying, if not, my car mechanic could do replacement. Is there something that I should know before replacement of the pump module? I heard it has coded type of engine, gearbox etc. Is it safe to put pump from "manual" to "automatic" gearbox car (or with different engine etc.) and THEN do a telecoding with DiagBox? And telecoding is easy enough to do at home, no special knowledge is needed?

One more thing, I can't check the part number of my pump as it is still in the workshop. Could you maybe check it by my VIN? Part numbers need to be same or there are more part numbers that will match my type of pump?

Many thanks.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Are you saying this is what the authorised dealer told you? All those 'U' fault codes are ECU / Electronic Communication faults and as I mentioned, most of these relate to the ENGINE ECU and programming faults. So I'm surprised they did not actually undertake the configuration programming for you to eliminate this as per the Technical Services Bulletin I mentioned....

It's better you replace like for like, as there are lots of different modules and yes they have to be programmed for the correct model, engine, gearbox etc, but you cannot replace it with any module and re-programme it. It must be the same unit as your original (because of the specific safety and operational features used) and have the correct software level for your vehicle, so it's not just a matter of replacing the module electronics with your original - the mechanical module has to be an exact match as your original part number - as although they may look the same, they may differ internally and in operation.

Also, on some of the earlier vehicles with earlier ABS / ESP modules, they used to actually sell the ECU part separate from the hydraulic block, but not with the newer vehicles, so maybe some later systems are not designed to be separated (probably again for safety reasons and people fitting the wrong types!).

It's best to get your number from your old pump (make, model and the long part number that usually begins with 16, 96 or 98).

I can get you the PSA part number, but as we are charged for live parts data by PSA we ask members for a £10 donation for parts info and parts diagrams (which will cover you for up to 2 years of parts queries). So although I can get your the PSA part number, you should also match it up with the 16, 96 or 98 number anyway as sometimes the PSA part number is different (as if you were buying a new one for example from PSA).
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ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
05 Sep 2020, 09:46
Are you saying this is what the authorised dealer told you? All those 'U' fault codes are ECU / Electronic Communication faults and as I mentioned, most of these relate to the ENGINE ECU and programming faults. So I'm surprised they did not actually undertake the configuration programming for you to eliminate this as per the Technical Services Bulletin I mentioned....
Probably they tried to make this update at first, I had no possibility to talk with car engineer and information I received from helpdesk guy of service was very limited as he is a new person in company with very small knowledge and his manager that was responsible for my car is on vacation...

However there is two CAN bus lines connected to ABS/ESP calculator, so if electronics are damaged then maybe it can cause failure of whole communication. I found similar problem (plenty CAN faults) when reading about problems with 308 or Citroen C5 (not sure anymore) - the cause in that case was rotten ABS pump plug. Since the plugs looks fine, maybe the problem lies inside.

So now I have the problem with getting ABS module part numbers from my car, probably I would have to take car back again to my previous workshop to dismantle fuse compartment and check the numbers, then try to find proper used one and replace. I called authorized service for the numbers, but using the VIN the gave me service part number 16112412 80, but at the used parts market nobody uses the service numbers and they only show what is written on the pump and pump electronics module. #-o I even found one used with service numer 16112412 80, but who knows if the numbers written on the part are matching those on my module.

It will all take time which I don't have, next week I leave my country for over two months and don't want to leave my wife with small children, because it will be hard for her to go from one service to another, while she is afraid to drive a car with christmas tree on the dashboard... But spending over 1200 Euro isn't an easy thing, while you can get working module for 50.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The CAN wiring won't be affected by a faulty ESP / ABS module - the data network talks to lots of ECUs and there is a redundancy built in for faults - so unless the wiring itself was faulty (breaks, plugs / pins) one faulty ECU can't damage another ECU.

I would suggest that all the wiring plugs between the ABS / ESP ECU are checked and all the ABS wheel sensors - if there is a faulty connection or faulty sensor this can also knock out the ESP system functions, providing basic braking functionality only.

If any work has been done on the brakes lately or anything where they have disturbed the wiring plugs / connectors this can cause a problem (even sometimes mechanics can forget to plug a connector back in!).

ketyow
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by ketyow »

Everything is fine after replacement of ABS pump calculator (there is no need to replace hydraulic block). Probably there was some cold solder joint or similar. If the problem won't come back in few days I'll mark the thread as solved. And I will open old electronics module to do some visual check.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 508 CAN bus problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Great, thanks for the update.