Objective: Third car for weekend use. Superb comfort, space, luxury (leather, AC, etc.), enough power.
Chances are:
- XM V6
- XM 2.5TD
- CX GTi 2
- CX TRD II (120Hp)
- DS 23
- DS 21
- SM Injection
- SM Carburator
Gentlemen, please place your bets... [8D]
3rd car - Xantia, XM, BX, CX, DS, SM, or 280SE?
Moderator: RichardW
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tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
SM will (Not might) bankrupt you and doesn't feel fast because it works so well.
Spares-no chance.
CX will drive you mad because it is so seductive but flimsy in every part of its engineering. All the quick ones are expensive to keep and will be well used.
DS: you'll always get your money back if you buy the right one. A 21 or 23 with aircon would be the best bet but spend a year learning how not to make a terrible mistake when buying and buy an average one in Amsterdam, Norway or Australia. Have it made good over here; then you will know it has all been done correctly.
Spares-no chance.
CX will drive you mad because it is so seductive but flimsy in every part of its engineering. All the quick ones are expensive to keep and will be well used.
DS: you'll always get your money back if you buy the right one. A 21 or 23 with aircon would be the best bet but spend a year learning how not to make a terrible mistake when buying and buy an average one in Amsterdam, Norway or Australia. Have it made good over here; then you will know it has all been done correctly.
Is money no object? If so, then go SM!!!...Be hard to find one though, although there was one on ebay this week.A DS would be nice as well, but I would avoid a CX unless it's very very very good- they just don't stand up to the weather, and it will be very hard to find one that isn't structurally rusted now. I remember them being virtually worthless even whilst still in production, so any you do find will have been severely abused by budget bodgers who wanted a big car but couldn't afford to run one.....fun as a basket case project though.
If money is tight, though, either an XM, damn good ones go for peanuts, or, not on the list, but how about a BX 16valve?
Oh, and buy yourself a Mig rig....
If money is tight, though, either an XM, damn good ones go for peanuts, or, not on the list, but how about a BX 16valve?
Oh, and buy yourself a Mig rig....
If YOU don't know which one you want then you probably don't want any of them. Ds and SMs are more to do with the heart than the head and neither are fast. Quick-ish, but not fast: and before the anoraks jump in, even an SM with a Merak engine is not fast. In the case of the SM, driving quickly is always accompanied by the certain knowledge that something is about to go very wrong, very expensively. Ds, like the SM, are fabulous to look at, but irritatingly noisy at anything over 70, and compared to most 'modern' cars, admit it, a bit ponderous. Their wipers are rubbish and ventilation is almost non-existant; air con a (v. expensive) necessity. Despite some CX's (petrol turbo) being fun, they do rust depressingly quickly and build quality is shoddy, to say the least. On a long run, cabin heat-soak is debilitating and ventilation is so weeny that power-sapping aircon is a must and even then, not much good.
XMs are just dull.
Weekend driving is so limited by queue-forming serial sheep these days that you'd be better off staying at home;)
XMs are just dull.
Weekend driving is so limited by queue-forming serial sheep these days that you'd be better off staying at home;)
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Thunderbird
Primo, you're very right in some points! [:p]
- SM -
My heart is on the SM, but haven't find anyone till now with a different opinion of "If you're going to drive it on Christmas, slowly around your block, it's ok".
Tom is right when he says the SM is fast but doesn't feel fast.
It is indeed a dream machine, but also one of the most unreliable cars ever built. Too bad... [:(]
It is out of the competition then.
- CX -
Rusty, unreliable, parts hard to find, odd mechanics.
Style, comfort and driving pleasure just are not enough to make it a good option. Once again I agree with everyone's option. Excluded.
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
Now, about the XM I haven't heard enough. I also admit bxbodger entrance of the BX 16 Valve and add myself a Xantia and a seventies Mercedes Benz 280SE. So, the competition goes on with the following options:
- XM V6 '97
- XM 2.5TD '95
- BX 16 Valve '88
- Xantia V6 '98
- Xantia HDi '00
- Mercedes 280SE '70
- SM -
My heart is on the SM, but haven't find anyone till now with a different opinion of "If you're going to drive it on Christmas, slowly around your block, it's ok".
Tom is right when he says the SM is fast but doesn't feel fast.
It is indeed a dream machine, but also one of the most unreliable cars ever built. Too bad... [:(]
It is out of the competition then.
- CX -
Rusty, unreliable, parts hard to find, odd mechanics.
Style, comfort and driving pleasure just are not enough to make it a good option. Once again I agree with everyone's option. Excluded.
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
Now, about the XM I haven't heard enough. I also admit bxbodger entrance of the BX 16 Valve and add myself a Xantia and a seventies Mercedes Benz 280SE. So, the competition goes on with the following options:
- XM V6 '97
- XM 2.5TD '95
- BX 16 Valve '88
- Xantia V6 '98
- Xantia HDi '00
- Mercedes 280SE '70
Just before I retire for the evening....on the introduction of the HDi Xantia 'What Car' (I think) said that the V6 Xantia was an 'irrelevance'. I eventually found an HDi and although I quite like it, exciting it ain't. As for the XM, 130 bhp (2.5TD) or 180 - I think, and then only in the 24v - is not enough to make this charismatically-challenged, electrically-compromised barge of any interest. IT'S DULL!
16v BX? I don't think so. It couldn't put it's meagre power down properly in the 1980s, what would make it adequate now? Four wheel drive? Possibly, but it didn't happen in series.
As for the Mercedes, what with a steering wheel the size of Rutland, the turn-in of a supermarket trolley and the throttle response of a cadaver, you'd have to be seriously disturbed to imagine....well, it doesn't bear imagining.
I'm begging you, don't clutter the potentially open road in front of me with this manner of mobile chicane, stay at home!
P.S. The SM isn't fast. It has 180bhp when it works well (and it never works THAT well, being phenomenally unreliable because the engine was design-compromised) and front wheel drive. It's too heavy and too old to be fast.
You can buy almost any part you might require for the DS, except body panels. New, that is.
P.P.S. Have you thought about a caravan?
: )
16v BX? I don't think so. It couldn't put it's meagre power down properly in the 1980s, what would make it adequate now? Four wheel drive? Possibly, but it didn't happen in series.
As for the Mercedes, what with a steering wheel the size of Rutland, the turn-in of a supermarket trolley and the throttle response of a cadaver, you'd have to be seriously disturbed to imagine....well, it doesn't bear imagining.
I'm begging you, don't clutter the potentially open road in front of me with this manner of mobile chicane, stay at home!
P.S. The SM isn't fast. It has 180bhp when it works well (and it never works THAT well, being phenomenally unreliable because the engine was design-compromised) and front wheel drive. It's too heavy and too old to be fast.
You can buy almost any part you might require for the DS, except body panels. New, that is.
P.P.S. Have you thought about a caravan?
: )
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DoubleChevron
- Posts: 622
- Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 18:06
- Location: Australia
- My Cars:
- Contact:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Primo, you're very right in some points!
- SM -
My heart is on the SM, but haven't find anyone till now with a different opinion of "If you're going to drive it on Christmas, slowly around your block, it's ok".
Tom is right when he says the SM is fast but doesn't feel fast.
It is indeed a dream machine, but also one of the most unreliable cars ever built. Too bad...
It is out of the competition then.
- CX -
Rusty, unreliable, parts hard to find, odd mechanics.
Style, comfort and driving pleasure just are not enough to make it a good option. Once again I agree with everyone's option. Excluded.
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
Now, about the XM I haven't heard enough. I also admit bxbodger entrance of the BX 16 Valve and add myself a Xantia and a seventies Mercedes Benz 280SE. So, the competition goes on with the following options:
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
THEMS FIGHTING WORDS [}:)]
SM:
Can't help but agree. Very much a dream car for me. The only aspect of the car that worries me is it's motor, the rest would be simple for me to upkeep. The idea of a Maserati motor dropping a sodium filled valve, or skipping/breaking a chain is extremely worrying.
CX:
Unreliable ?? Odd mechanics. Lets see, it has a east west engine, yeah that's odd and hard. It has trailing arm, gee's I've never seen them before, don't BX's and Xantias even share the same rear arm bearings. It has a 4cylinder wet sleeve motor ...Yeah that's odd. An indestructable gearbox. It can have Borg warner (bullet proof) slugomatic --super odd. or a manual with 4 or 5 forward gears that is near indestrucable --how strange.... let me guess, it's the fact it has real suspension under the front of it instead of crappy struts ?? Yeah how odd.
As for unreliable, absolutely laughable. When you have an indestructable drivetrain, bullet proof suspension, body that's tough as nails what is there to go wrong ?? Some of the early late '70s CX2200 and CX2400's are starting to show rust around the lower windscreen corners and bottoms of the doors. It's still exceptionally easy to find a rust free CX out here.
Yes, CX's are a HOT car in summer, but you guys are in the UK so you need every bit of heat you can get
DS's
These bloody cars are built like Mack trucks, the motors go forever, the gearboxs are indestructable, the driveshafts and suspension size and strength is beyond belief. These cars were made by engineers not bean counters. They do rust if not looked after, however there's still lots of good ones left. Most of the rusty ones have been used as parts cars. Nothing drives like a DS, there ventilation is fantastic, however the cooling and heating of said ventilation isn't great. Noisy ??? Gimme a break, the design is 50years old, for a 1955 car they are whisper quiet.
A well looked after DS is an exceptionally tough vehicle, I'd drive one as an only everyday car in a heartbeat. My problem is I need something with enough grunt to tow large trailers/caravan/etc... So my daily car is a CX2500 GTi Turbo. There is a guy in australia who is still driving an orginal unrestored '57 Slough Built DS19 as an everyday car. He piles on over 30,000miles a year on the car. I've driven it several times, the driving experiance of an early DS19 (50's model) is beyond belief. It's simply brilliant, NOTHING comes close. BTW: This car is nearly 50years old and is yet to show any signs of rust. It's no museum peice and certainly looks like a well used but looked after 50year old car.
XM:
It's an overgrown BX, why don't you just get a Series I BX 16valve.
Obviously the driving conditions between the UK and Australia are very different. for starter rust isn't an issue out here, that's why I've been driving CX's every day for 12years and am yet to fix any rust in one.
seeya,
Shane L.
- SM -
My heart is on the SM, but haven't find anyone till now with a different opinion of "If you're going to drive it on Christmas, slowly around your block, it's ok".
Tom is right when he says the SM is fast but doesn't feel fast.
It is indeed a dream machine, but also one of the most unreliable cars ever built. Too bad...
It is out of the competition then.
- CX -
Rusty, unreliable, parts hard to find, odd mechanics.
Style, comfort and driving pleasure just are not enough to make it a good option. Once again I agree with everyone's option. Excluded.
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
Now, about the XM I haven't heard enough. I also admit bxbodger entrance of the BX 16 Valve and add myself a Xantia and a seventies Mercedes Benz 280SE. So, the competition goes on with the following options:
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
THEMS FIGHTING WORDS [}:)]
SM:
Can't help but agree. Very much a dream car for me. The only aspect of the car that worries me is it's motor, the rest would be simple for me to upkeep. The idea of a Maserati motor dropping a sodium filled valve, or skipping/breaking a chain is extremely worrying.
CX:
Unreliable ?? Odd mechanics. Lets see, it has a east west engine, yeah that's odd and hard. It has trailing arm, gee's I've never seen them before, don't BX's and Xantias even share the same rear arm bearings. It has a 4cylinder wet sleeve motor ...Yeah that's odd. An indestructable gearbox. It can have Borg warner (bullet proof) slugomatic --super odd. or a manual with 4 or 5 forward gears that is near indestrucable --how strange.... let me guess, it's the fact it has real suspension under the front of it instead of crappy struts ?? Yeah how odd.
As for unreliable, absolutely laughable. When you have an indestructable drivetrain, bullet proof suspension, body that's tough as nails what is there to go wrong ?? Some of the early late '70s CX2200 and CX2400's are starting to show rust around the lower windscreen corners and bottoms of the doors. It's still exceptionally easy to find a rust free CX out here.
Yes, CX's are a HOT car in summer, but you guys are in the UK so you need every bit of heat you can get
DS's
These bloody cars are built like Mack trucks, the motors go forever, the gearboxs are indestructable, the driveshafts and suspension size and strength is beyond belief. These cars were made by engineers not bean counters. They do rust if not looked after, however there's still lots of good ones left. Most of the rusty ones have been used as parts cars. Nothing drives like a DS, there ventilation is fantastic, however the cooling and heating of said ventilation isn't great. Noisy ??? Gimme a break, the design is 50years old, for a 1955 car they are whisper quiet.
A well looked after DS is an exceptionally tough vehicle, I'd drive one as an only everyday car in a heartbeat. My problem is I need something with enough grunt to tow large trailers/caravan/etc... So my daily car is a CX2500 GTi Turbo. There is a guy in australia who is still driving an orginal unrestored '57 Slough Built DS19 as an everyday car. He piles on over 30,000miles a year on the car. I've driven it several times, the driving experiance of an early DS19 (50's model) is beyond belief. It's simply brilliant, NOTHING comes close. BTW: This car is nearly 50years old and is yet to show any signs of rust. It's no museum peice and certainly looks like a well used but looked after 50year old car.
XM:
It's an overgrown BX, why don't you just get a Series I BX 16valve.
Obviously the driving conditions between the UK and Australia are very different. for starter rust isn't an issue out here, that's why I've been driving CX's every day for 12years and am yet to fix any rust in one.
seeya,
Shane L.
-
uhn113x
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: 06 Jan 2004, 22:06
- Location: Near Leeds, United Kingdom
- My Cars: 1981 Dyane - on road all year round.
1982 GSA Pallas - on road April - September.
1997 ZX 1.9D Dimension. - x 1
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">:
Primo, you're very right in some points!
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
THEMS FIGHTING WORDS
DS's
These bloody cars are built like Mack trucks, the motors go forever, the gearboxs are indestructable, the driveshafts and suspension size and strength is beyond belief. These cars were made by engineers not bean counters. They do rust if not looked after, however there's still lots of good ones left. Most of the rusty ones have been used as parts cars. Nothing drives like a DS, there ventilation is fantastic, however the cooling and heating of said ventilation isn't great. Noisy ??? Gimme a break, the design is 50years old, for a 1955 car they are whisper quiet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Maybe base model DSs are noisy by present day standards - top of the range Pallas with 50mm foam under carpets, is not, if there are no faults. The 21 injection delivers 139BHP, and will hold 160kph all day on the autobahn; adequate for all but the boy-racer.
You do not need aircon in UK - just makes maintenance difficult. Ventilation is excellent and controllable. As Shane says, the mechanicals are indestructible.
Don't understand what you mean by 'seats to low' - do you mean 'sinks' or are you saying something about the seats?[?] Yes, they do; so?
Primo, you're very right in some points!
- DS -
Hard to find one in shape (and to know about it), noisy, no ventilation, like primo and Tom said... Parts hard to get. Problems in parking in the city - it seats to low...
It is out too.
THEMS FIGHTING WORDS
DS's
These bloody cars are built like Mack trucks, the motors go forever, the gearboxs are indestructable, the driveshafts and suspension size and strength is beyond belief. These cars were made by engineers not bean counters. They do rust if not looked after, however there's still lots of good ones left. Most of the rusty ones have been used as parts cars. Nothing drives like a DS, there ventilation is fantastic, however the cooling and heating of said ventilation isn't great. Noisy ??? Gimme a break, the design is 50years old, for a 1955 car they are whisper quiet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Maybe base model DSs are noisy by present day standards - top of the range Pallas with 50mm foam under carpets, is not, if there are no faults. The 21 injection delivers 139BHP, and will hold 160kph all day on the autobahn; adequate for all but the boy-racer.
You do not need aircon in UK - just makes maintenance difficult. Ventilation is excellent and controllable. As Shane says, the mechanicals are indestructible.
Don't understand what you mean by 'seats to low' - do you mean 'sinks' or are you saying something about the seats?[?] Yes, they do; so?
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tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Aircon is essential here. How else do you demist in winter with the feeble fans fitted to a Citroen? A DS is a wonderful driving experience but not an everyday car for any but the most committed (And most have been...) Our australian friends need to know that shipping a CX from there, the only place where they are rust free is expensive and that when the container is opened at Southampton, there will be a pile of rusty dust to sweep out and some plastic trim.
Something different, fast and mildly exotic- Again, Saab 900 Turbo. Nearly as cheap to run as an SM but easier parts availability
Off the wall choice rating beauty highest? 406 coupe.
Something different, fast and mildly exotic- Again, Saab 900 Turbo. Nearly as cheap to run as an SM but easier parts availability
Off the wall choice rating beauty highest? 406 coupe.
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Thunderbird
- XM is not a larger BX. My father had one BX16TRS, one BX GTi, one XM 2.0, and has now one XM 12TD. XM seats are much much better. Handling and comfort on the XM is also much better. More silence. More materials. More solid (less plastic). Much more safe (passive and active safety). XM is so much better that the comparison doesn't even make sence.
Still, I agree to exclude both from the list.
- Concerning the DD and parking, I meant 'sinks'. My father also had a '69 DS21. When parking in line other cars usually damage the capot.
- I don't live in the UK, still, 99% of the CX's sold here and 100% of the GS's, fade away in rust and mechanical failure, especially hydraulic. The problem is, when a car is old and the price of repairing is higher than its value, most people (except 'aficionados' like this forum members), dump it.
- Concerning sixties and seventies class S Mercedes, streets are filled with them. And most owners are not 'aficionados' - it just keeps working with truly simple maintenance and petrol. Statistics don't lie...
So, the list goes on like this:
- Xantia HDi 110Hp/250Nm
- Xantia HDi 136Hp/290Nm (chip) *New entry*
- Peugeot 406 Coupé *New entry*
- Mercedes SE280 '70
Still, I agree to exclude both from the list.
- Concerning the DD and parking, I meant 'sinks'. My father also had a '69 DS21. When parking in line other cars usually damage the capot.
- I don't live in the UK, still, 99% of the CX's sold here and 100% of the GS's, fade away in rust and mechanical failure, especially hydraulic. The problem is, when a car is old and the price of repairing is higher than its value, most people (except 'aficionados' like this forum members), dump it.
- Concerning sixties and seventies class S Mercedes, streets are filled with them. And most owners are not 'aficionados' - it just keeps working with truly simple maintenance and petrol. Statistics don't lie...
So, the list goes on like this:
- Xantia HDi 110Hp/250Nm
- Xantia HDi 136Hp/290Nm (chip) *New entry*
- Peugeot 406 Coupé *New entry*
- Mercedes SE280 '70
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Stuart McB
- Posts: 1635
- Joined: 03 Oct 2003, 00:50
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 1
Just checked out the French Classic site. WOW!!! a Renault Feugo. Had one on an early 'C' reg. 2.0ltr GTX, manual with all the bits. Import from Australia so had climate control, electric seats, FM stereo, slick gear box and slightly lower suspension. Oh and had a drink habit like no tomorrow, £60 per week when petrol was only £1.25 a gallon. Broken Carb and couldn't afford a new one. Still agreat looking car. Been surfing E-bay for a cheapie to bring back to life. Please don't tell the wife.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">body that's tough as nails <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Not in this country!!!!
Thats the main reason there are so few survivors here, they rust away in every possible place before your very eyes-4th in line in structural and cosmetic rustiness to the GS , the Alfasud, and the Lancia Beta are worse!!!
Did you ever get the Alfasud or the Beta in Oz by the way- both superb motors, the Beta having a wonderful twincam with twinchoke dellorto's, but both absolute tinworm magnets!
Not in this country!!!!
Thats the main reason there are so few survivors here, they rust away in every possible place before your very eyes-4th in line in structural and cosmetic rustiness to the GS , the Alfasud, and the Lancia Beta are worse!!!
Did you ever get the Alfasud or the Beta in Oz by the way- both superb motors, the Beta having a wonderful twincam with twinchoke dellorto's, but both absolute tinworm magnets!
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Seamster15
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 27 Jul 2004, 14:12
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
406 Coupe is a great car with a great 3.0 v6 engine, if thats the one you are thinking about. I just sold mine due to the impending cambelt change and servicing costs... You could go for the 2.0 but who wants all show but no go ? If you do go for the v6 you will have great fun but at a heavy petrol price.......
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tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: