C5x7 3rd time steering leaking

[aerodynamica]

Update: thanks to Stu (sloppysod) I have taken custody of the old refurbished rack from back in 2017. Spent the past few hours dismantling it to see what's inside.

Firstly I wanted to see how many turns lock to lock is has to compare to what the car does. The car is exactly 3 turns and the rack does 3 3/4 turns. Does that indicate it's the 'other' rackb type? I measure 180mm travel lock to lock and it has the 2x rubber stoppers fitted. I thought that all meant it was a '180' rack the same as mine.
Pinion valve is out and it has 8 teeth.

But I'm most interested in the pinion valve housing, shaft and seals. And I think I've found a problem in using a speedisleeve to sort this....

A sleeve is fitted on the shaft and then the oil seals are replaced over it. Trouble is the oil seals are fitted from the inside of the pinion housing. Ok! So you fit the sleeve to the removed shaft , fit the seals to the housing then shove the lot, sleeved and good, back in.. but! There's another component that prevents that. The pressed-in retaining ring (that's got the 3 notches around its edge) this ring has a bronze bushing that fits close to the shaft. It's a friction fit and is designed to let the shaft rotate and keep the shaft held central in the oil seals. This ring needs to go in after fitting the seals and then the shaft is fitted through it all. If there's a sleeve on the shaft, even if its very thin, it will not pass the bronze bushing.

I wondered if the ring with bushing could be fitted to the shaft then the sleeve and then the lot shoved in the housing but how would the ring locate in its seal and go flush internally? Measuring it all there is a 1.5mm gap left between the flush pressed in ring and the valve body on the shaft. This ring would likely move down the shaft and contact the valve body, closing up the 1.5 gap and hence, leaving a1.5 gap between the oil seal and the other side of the ring... phew.

I can't see a way around this.

Picture added shows ring and oil seal in their places on the shaft - 1.5mm gap between the ring and valve body is designed in.

Well I can think of one way but it's very involved...

[aerodynamica]

Points if you guess my wild solution to this

[aerodynamica]

Actually, the more I think about it the more the solution makes sense. It's a fair bit of modification but I can see it working quite well and will allow a sleeve to be fitted.

[MattBLancs]

Points if you guess my wild solution to this

Very rough guesses:

Spoiler: show

cut the ring in half allowing the two halves to be slotted in after rather than over the speedy sleeve. I might have got confused in your good description and this one might not be viable!

Or

Spoiler: show

even "rougher" solution:
Chuck that ring in the scrap pile and see how well the rack performs without it! There's lots of close contact further up where the series of O-rings interface with the pinion housing. So try it without. You mentioned a fair bit of modification and "chuck it and hope" does not fit that description!!

[aerodynamica]

Points if you guess my wild solution to this

Very rough guesses:

Spoiler: show

cut the ring in half allowing the two halves to be slotted in after rather than over the speedy sleeve. I might have got confused in your good description and this one might not be viable!

Or

Spoiler: show

even "rougher" solution:
Chuck that ring in the scrap pile and see how well the rack performs without it! There's lots of close contact further up where the series of O-rings interface with the pinion housing. So try it without. You mentioned a fair bit of modification and "chuck it and hope" does not fit that description!!

Hiya Matt, some interesting guesses there

Main thing re that ring is that it looks like it's fairly essential. It's a bushing with a bronze sleeve that the shaft bears on. I've conceded that the ring has to be there and in that location.

[aerodynamica]

Ok, so the crazy idea is to modify the pinion housing so that the oil seals no longer have to be fitted from inside and can be pushed down the shaft from the outside. It means opening out the 25mm hole on the top to 30mm to match the internal 30mm bore that the seals fit into. The metal ring gets fitted first in its usual way - flush to the boss of the wider internal bore. Then the whole thing reassembled on the rack. Next, the speedisleeve fitted down the shaft to lightly butt against the metal ring, next a new 5mm thick oil seal. Then! A second 5mm oil seal that stacked together still allow a protrusion of the speedisleeve of about 1mm at the outside. Then lastly a circlip fitted in a groove about 10- 10.5 mm from the metal ring. That leaves about 2-3mm of the housing boss above. Obviously that block on the outside has to get cut off. It means that seals - if they fail again in the future, might be able to be removed from the top. Maybe.

But they really should last with the speedisleeve. And the icing on the cake is fitting a rubber boot to hopefully hold out moisture.

Attached pic shown the speedisleeve and where it would sit on the shaft. The sleeve has a flange that's the edge the fitting tool bears on. You're meant to removevthis by cutting and peeling it off as it has a tiny groove, but you can also leave it if it's not interfering. I'm leaving it because A. It's not possible to remove it once it's in place and B. It gives an extra 3mm of sleeve and the new oil seal has a kind of chamfer edge that actually suits the flange.

[aerodynamica]

Two 5mm thick oil seals together are still slightly less that the sleeve letting the sleeve protrude out a bit.

[aerodynamica]

Hopefully there's not something I've missed because I've gone ahead and got medieval on the housing.

The block chopped off, 25mm hole now 30mm, a bit of a groove to the outside to help a rubber gaiter stay attached, a circlip groove cut in the new 30mm bore for a circlip that I don't have yet..

Pic shows it now and the metal ring now fitted back in.

[aerodynamica]

Here with the shaft fitted and 2x 5mm seals as though they were to fit

[aerodynamica]

Should be able to fit the seals this way and then a circlip.

Obviously not going to actually fit them yet because I need to fix the pitting on the shaft first but this is the general direction I'm going here.

So overall:
Modified housing,
Speedisleeve
2x oil seals
Rubber boot
And hell, why not, marine grease too.

Basically every previous suggestion ever for this problem all together. Surely after all these years this is it

[MattBLancs]

Fantastic Graeme!

My next thought on the "quite a bit of modification" direction was perhaps whether you were going to cut the top of the pinion housing off and allow the lips seal to sit in the cut off half and then allowing it to be reinstalled - needs an extra sealing arrangement if done like that (and most likely a new fabrication for the top piece)


Your method looks good, quick queries that come to mind:
Enlarged 25mm to 30mm centre bore and circlip groove= done on a lathe?
Any reason why didn't turn the outer surface (after cutting say 3/4 of the useless lump off first) ? Could creat a lovely smooth finish to the benefit of the outer boot sealing?

Doubling up on the lip seals seems a good idea.

[aerodynamica]

Fantastic Graeme!

My next thought on the "quite a bit of modification" direction was perhaps whether you were going to cut the top of the pinion housing off and allow the lips seal to sit in the cut off half and then allowing it to be reinstalled - needs an extra sealing arrangement if done linked that (and most likely a new fabrication for the top piece)


Your method looks good, quick queries that come to mind:
Enlarged 25mm to 30mm centre bore and circlip groove= done on a lathe?
An reason why didn't turn the outer surface (after cutting say 3/4 of the useless lump off first) ? Could creat a lovely smooth finish to the benefit of the outer boot sealing?

Doubling up on the lip seals seems a good idea.

Hi Matt , done by hand but I'll be able to refine it all at work next week. The seals still sit in their original 30mm bore (well possibly about 1mm of the upper seal might meet the 'new' 30mm bit) so the finish only needs to be good enough for the seals to pass through in fitting without damage. And fit the circlip groove.

This housing isn't the one from the car, its the one from Stu's old rack from storage. It's really for working it out. Having said that I might end up using this one but with the shaft from the rack on the car - whatever one is better or can be made better. The one on the car is the one fitted by the dudes at Wakefield steering service. I don't know if they did anything to the shaft itself that might change the seal sizes needed. I just got 20mm seals.

And yes. Likely will clean up the outside finish too. Got limited tools here but lathes, pipe polishers etc available at work.

[aerodynamica]

Incidentally, the rack I got from Stu was his one that wouldn't track and had the steering wheel at the wrong angle. I've looked at the throw of the rack and it's 180mm. More turns though. I also think the part number on the casting is not the one I'm looking for.

I think though that the pinion valve housing is probably the same... I hope so. If not I'll have to do all this again to the one on the car. I'm expecting the shaft to have a different pinion though so likely it's the shaft on the car that's to be reused.

[aerodynamica]

Looking at the part number on studs old rack it is 7832.501.318 anyone know if that means anything?

I took part number 98 014 154 80. From and older thread Marc had mentioned as being the part number for the correct 180mm rack.

[MattBLancs]

I'd guess the difference (180 Vs the other one, 184????) was a few more slots cut into the rack itself - that would be logical way to do it, anyway!?