2.2 HDi poor cold performance

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Every time I try to describe a pattern the goalposts move.
This evening I started it cold and it was fairly smooth then after about 15 seconds it started to shudder. Bit smokey out the back especially if revving. Dark grey smoke that stops when the shudder stops. Compression issue worst case?
Maybe smoke is from too much oil getting into the intake? Do these have a valve on the breather pipe like the 1.6 does or some other seal that fails? I haven't looked yet just sharing thoughts before I go to sleep
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
Rp0thejester
Donor 2024
Posts: 2388
Joined: 11 May 2022, 19:54
x 807

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by Rp0thejester »

I would of expected blue smoke if it was oil, dark grey sounds like soot build up mixed with fuel. The EGR block could be confusing the ECU whilst it's trying to figure out the Air/Fuel ratio hence the erratic revs on tick over. As for what injectors are fitted to your car, the best person to ask would be GiveMeABreak in the parts thread. Your a member so will have access to the official part numbers and diagrams. He can also tell you what is fitted to your car from the VIN number.
Ryan

'99 Xsara 1.6 X (Red) with Sunkissed bonnet. T59 SBX
'54 Astra Estate 1.7DTI (Artic White)
'06 C8 2.2Hdi Exclusive (Aster Grey)

Champion of Where's CitroJim :-({|=
Yes I ask the stupid questions, because normally it is that simple.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Tbh I'm not sure if it's dark grey or blue, even the examples online seem like a shade of grey to me. Like I can see why someone would call it blue but without a side by side it's hard to be confident.
Probably unrelated, but I think my MAF (or IAT) is damaged. It doesn't affect the problem mentioned here and unplugging doesn't seem to anything other than create an EML but I cleaned it today with electrical cleaner and noted quite a bit of dark in the liquid runoff. But when I looked closer it looks like one of the thermistor looking things is missing. I don't know if it's MAF or IAT as I think they're combined but it's the wider section inside not the one that looks like a tower.

On the side nearest the incoming air there's a thermistor(?) bridging 2 thin bits of wire. On the side nearer the turbo the thin bits of metal are there but there's no component bridging them. Assuming there should be.
Also, I haven't double checked in lexia yet but my ObdLink reader has the Maf at about 17 g/s at idle and around 45 g/s at 2000 rpm which looks to be way too high according to some old posts albeit for a 2.0.
If it thinks it's having more air than it is, I'm guessing it's going to be over fueling?
It looks to be a 3rd party sensor either way so no harm in changing it. I'd better go dealer for that as it'll probably be a waste of time going cheap
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25474
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 4922

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by myglaren »

Nothing missing, it is as it should be.
058.JPG
This was mine, or one of them anyway.
Those thin wires are very delicate and will be ruined if touched or the unit dropped.
IIRC the thermistor measures the air temperature and the wires measure the airflow by determining the temperature drop caused by the airflow over them.
It is corroded and full of debris sucked up from the side of the road when the wheel arch liner disintegrated and water and muck were thrown up into the induction hose.

I cleaned mine with carburettor spray and it worked fine after that.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Ah that's really helpful and wow, that's pretty grubby. How did so much pass the filter!

I think that pic actually shows that mine IS damaged though. One of those staple shaped parts doesn't have anything across it, not even the thin metal "bridge" it looks like yours has both connected. I'll try get a picture up for confirmation in case mine is meant to be for whatever reason. I wouldn't be surprised if it is damaged though, having accidentally touched one a few years ago and seen how easy it fell apart it was a good lesson
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25474
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 4922

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by myglaren »

The filter was completely sodden and misshapen and the 'horn' to the left of it completely full of water and grit.
Still mystified as to the purpose of the horn thing.
User avatar
Rp0thejester
Donor 2024
Posts: 2388
Joined: 11 May 2022, 19:54
x 807

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by Rp0thejester »

I don't have my MAF connected anymore. The replacement went bang just before Xmas when we had the really cold spell. So now I don't have to worry about being put into limp mode and have seen no deterioration in mpg either. So it's staying disconnected forever!
Ryan

'99 Xsara 1.6 X (Red) with Sunkissed bonnet. T59 SBX
'54 Astra Estate 1.7DTI (Artic White)
'06 C8 2.2Hdi Exclusive (Aster Grey)

Champion of Where's CitroJim :-({|=
Yes I ask the stupid questions, because normally it is that simple.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

No judder today. No smoke on start up. Air temp was still only about 8° C
Took it for a run through Brecon and mid Wales, seemed to have plenty of torque, pulling on gentle slopes in 6th, to the point where I was starting to wonder if it's been remapped. Even seemed too quick driving at idle speed as I'd gone up to 4th and was going up inclines with that slightly unsettling pull you get sometimes when activating cruise control.




Only 2 things changed.. Cleaned the (possibly broken) MAF the day before
Also had a flat battery and needed to jump.
Battery was because I changed the radio and it prevented the BSI sleeping properly (even with radio hard power off) I should've picked up on the clue that my dash display was still illuminated as I locked up and I assumed it would go in to economy mode anyway but nope. Will have to look at the wiring to see if there's a way of tricking the data lines but for now I've removed it.
So theres a possibility that an incidental BSI reset has cured it but it was still juddering after both the battery incident and the maf clean so I doubt it.
Pretty sure it'll come back because every day seems to shuffle the symptoms at the moment!

Myglaren I'm not sure what you mean by the 'horn' is it a specific part of the airbox moulding to your vehicle (I'm guessing it was a C5 I think I've seen you mention in old posts)

Jester interesting no side effects to a unplugged MAF. Have you deleted anything else? Any flaps? Air inlet heat exchanger?
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25474
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 4922

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by myglaren »

To the left of the filter box and under the same lid there was a kind of 'pit', about a foot long and tapering towards the bottom. It was closed at the bottom so had filled up with water.
Not a clue what its purpose was. Cleaned it out and drilled a 1 mm hole in the bottom to keep it dry.
Should have a photo somewhere. Anyone's guess where though.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Oh I know what you mean now, I assumed it was a debris trap but also shaped to act as some sort of counterbalance.
I thought mine did have a hole, but I'm now going to double check shortly when I take a pic of my MAF.
Place ur bets on whether I get a shakey engine when I turn it over!
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Shaking again today (with/without MAF)
20240301_120806.jpg
Here's the MAF the thermistor looking thing is on the other side (in the background) and there's a similar one on the "tower" structure opposite (out of shot).
On the side in focus can see one is joined but the other seems to be missing a component. Shame it's not the cause of the main issue though.

Seems to be reasonably dry today so going to try put all the vac lines back and start again.

As for the "horn" I've looked again and pretty sure it acts like a trap in the same way a bagless vacuum does. Air goes to the filter and heavier unexpected items like leaves and stones get thrown into the trap. My guess is that it doesn't have a drain hole because any upwards airflow would defeat its ability to trap, it needs to be a dead end so air can go in and lose its energy and drop whatever it's carrying, a hole in the bottom could potentially defeat the purpose but if it's small I doubt it would make much difference and at least you have your drain.
Last edited by MixerFistit on 01 Mar 2024, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25474
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 4922

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by myglaren »

That does look rather terminal.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

#-o Maybe that little piece is holding a valve open somewhere lol

I just edited my last post btw, it was directed to you regarding the "horn"
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25474
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 14:30
x 4922

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by myglaren »

The car is long gone and the hole made no discernible difference.
MixerFistit
Donor 2023
Posts: 119
Joined: 17 Oct 2021, 14:45
x 11

Re: 2.2 HDi poor cold performance

Post by MixerFistit »

Apologies, there was a hole in the bottom of the 'horn', about 5mm and it looks like it is meant to be there as there's a clear punch out section in the moulding (although not centre bottom where you'd expect)

Anyway, problem still unsolved but after reconnecting the vac lines and learning a bit more about them and the eletrovalves, the egr one was still hot and failed so constantly opening egr.
I also found that both of the inlet flaps EV were stuck open and very hot like the egr one so they're back off for now as it was bypassing intercooler permanently; and I've electrically unplugged egr and both inlet EVs as well as blanked the vac lives again so at least the ecu is aware it can't use them this time.
None of this seems to affect the cold shudder but I think I should at least get some functioning EVs so I can diagnose further on a stock configuration. Having the egr constantly open just chucks out white smoke out the back. I have one good EV on my Dispatch that I can use so will try that on the egr first but the ecu may still get upset if it can't move the inlet flaps so scrapyard or eBay next port of call
2005 C8 2.2 HDI 4HW - 6 Seat, Exclusive

2006 Dispatch 2.0 HDi RHZ (SORN)