Hi first experience of xantia 95N td 105k. reassuring to discover this fantastic body of knowledge.
On tickover when stationary I can feel a pulse type vibration through the driver’s seat. Originally thought it was a poor engine mounting; now certain it is a suspension issue. Seems more pronounced when sitting in the back. Can also feel this with a hand touching both the rear wheel arch and the tyre.
Other features of the suspension appear to be
Slow to react to change of suspension position
Also 1st thing in morning on tickover seems to take 10 or so seconds to extinguish the red stop light. Then the front end lifts up
At Motorway speed the front seems to float a bit too much; like weak shocks on a standard car.
Thanks ever so much in anticipation of any pointers. I have a feeling I have just been sold something from the fruit bowl by a local garage. He was keen to write sold as seen on the receipt last Friday and appeared to be merrily rubbing his hands together in my mirror on departure? Such is life.
regards
Xantia pulse sensation through seats
Moderator: RichardW
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heath robinson
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to deal with the easy bit first - the light should take about 10 secs to go out, perhaps longer on a Xantia with the twin outlet pump which has 5? pistons for the power steering and 2 for the brakes and suspension.
I think your rear spheres are flat and the accumulator may be as well. if the rear spheres are sound the car should drop about 4 inches when you sit in the boot with the engine running and the suspension at normal height. After about 20 secs it should rise, and if its very slow it probably means the accumulator sphere on the regulator has failed as well. After the car has returned to its normal height if you get out of the boot, the car should rise by about 4 inches again before falling to the normal height.
If the car won't drop when you sit in it then the rear spheres have failed and should be replaced before damage is done to the rear arm bearings. If it rises slowly then I think its the accumulator as the pump with only 2 cylinders is doing all the work and its capacity is small. I think your pulse is because all 3 spheres have failed and there is nothing to damp the pump pulses.
New spheres are about £19 + VAT from GSF. the fun bit is working out which ones you need, and also getting them off. For the procedure have a search of this site - there are numerous explanations. its not difficult if you have a suitable tool with which to grip them. chain oil filter wrenches are unlikely to work.
finally a word of warning. Make sure the car is properly supported before working underneath it. If it drops it will KILL you!
Jeremy
I think your rear spheres are flat and the accumulator may be as well. if the rear spheres are sound the car should drop about 4 inches when you sit in the boot with the engine running and the suspension at normal height. After about 20 secs it should rise, and if its very slow it probably means the accumulator sphere on the regulator has failed as well. After the car has returned to its normal height if you get out of the boot, the car should rise by about 4 inches again before falling to the normal height.
If the car won't drop when you sit in it then the rear spheres have failed and should be replaced before damage is done to the rear arm bearings. If it rises slowly then I think its the accumulator as the pump with only 2 cylinders is doing all the work and its capacity is small. I think your pulse is because all 3 spheres have failed and there is nothing to damp the pump pulses.
New spheres are about £19 + VAT from GSF. the fun bit is working out which ones you need, and also getting them off. For the procedure have a search of this site - there are numerous explanations. its not difficult if you have a suitable tool with which to grip them. chain oil filter wrenches are unlikely to work.
finally a word of warning. Make sure the car is properly supported before working underneath it. If it drops it will KILL you!
Jeremy
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heath robinson
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very kind of you to respond so quickly and with such detail. thank you. if i've understood correctly, i may get away with 2 new spheres on the back and a new accumulator sphere which I understand is the one at the front of car on the gearbox. once my haynes manual arrives by post i will see if i can generate sufficient confidence to have a go
thank you once again for your help
regards
thank you once again for your help
regards
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RichardW
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">by a local garage. He was keen to write sold as seen on the receipt last Friday and appeared to be merrily rubbing his hands together in my mirror on departure? Such is life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ha ha! Cars sold by traders are covered by the new Sale of Goods Act which basically says that any faults which develop within 6 months of the sale were deemed to be present at the time of sale and have to be fixed by the vendor. I very much doubt writing "Sold as seen" carries any weight here. Get onto your local trading standards, arm yourself with the relevant info, make a list of the faults, march down there and play merry hell [}:)]
It seems likely that all the spheres need replacing, and if there is no noticeable change in the rear height at start up, then the rear height corrector is probably faulty too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ha ha! Cars sold by traders are covered by the new Sale of Goods Act which basically says that any faults which develop within 6 months of the sale were deemed to be present at the time of sale and have to be fixed by the vendor. I very much doubt writing "Sold as seen" carries any weight here. Get onto your local trading standards, arm yourself with the relevant info, make a list of the faults, march down there and play merry hell [}:)]
It seems likely that all the spheres need replacing, and if there is no noticeable change in the rear height at start up, then the rear height corrector is probably faulty too.
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heath robinson
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<font color="limegreen">Does the centre rear anti sink sphere influence comfort?</font id="limegreen">
your note jeremy seems to make much sense, particularly that the pulse sensation through the seat bases is because all 3 spheres have failed and there is nothing to damp the pump pulses.(rear 2 and accumulator front i guess?)
the boot test works as described, however to add further credence to your suggestion that the rear spheres may be flat, is the fact that on push test when running, the front is very soft and the back is much tougher to push down; huge difference.
as the ride of this car is so bad, i am actually thinking of changing all 6 spheres. Hence my initial question; will changing the rear centre sphere impact on comfort?
i'm determined to secure the ride comfort i once experienced, that encouraged me to go for a xantia. i have a horrible feeling i may have a long and expensive journey ahead of me.....
other symptoms include:
brakes will work when engine is turned off.
when on tick over if lowered to base position then moved back into normal driving position, the red lights come on until it starts to move up to normal position.
front suspension appears only to have 3 positions. base (looks right), normal (which looks about right)and raised driving height. there is no increase from this at the front of the car when the lever is moved into highest position. the back does go up.
i had wondered whether the front and rear suspension are linked via fluid movement; so the hard flat rear would exacerbate the floating front (noticeable most at motorway speeds)
any more thoughts gratefully received
regards
(Thanks richardw; just seen your response)
your note jeremy seems to make much sense, particularly that the pulse sensation through the seat bases is because all 3 spheres have failed and there is nothing to damp the pump pulses.(rear 2 and accumulator front i guess?)
the boot test works as described, however to add further credence to your suggestion that the rear spheres may be flat, is the fact that on push test when running, the front is very soft and the back is much tougher to push down; huge difference.
as the ride of this car is so bad, i am actually thinking of changing all 6 spheres. Hence my initial question; will changing the rear centre sphere impact on comfort?
i'm determined to secure the ride comfort i once experienced, that encouraged me to go for a xantia. i have a horrible feeling i may have a long and expensive journey ahead of me.....
other symptoms include:
brakes will work when engine is turned off.
when on tick over if lowered to base position then moved back into normal driving position, the red lights come on until it starts to move up to normal position.
front suspension appears only to have 3 positions. base (looks right), normal (which looks about right)and raised driving height. there is no increase from this at the front of the car when the lever is moved into highest position. the back does go up.
i had wondered whether the front and rear suspension are linked via fluid movement; so the hard flat rear would exacerbate the floating front (noticeable most at motorway speeds)
any more thoughts gratefully received
regards
(Thanks richardw; just seen your response)
Your problems with the front height are probably simply that the linkage is stiff and a clean and grease will sort it out. Not a bad idea to do the back as well. Front spheres tend to fail more frequently than rear and may have been replaced more frequently.
The anti-sink sphere doesn't do what you expect. The valve traps fluid in the rear suspension cylinders and keeps the rear of the car up. however there is still a very small leakage through the valve and eventually the rear of the car will drop. What happens is that the valve opens, the rear of the car drops and calls for fluid which is then supplied by the pump but there is insufficient pressure for the rear brakes etc. The sphere is there to prevent this happening.
There are numerous postings on anti sink on this site - I suggest you search for some.
jeremy
The anti-sink sphere doesn't do what you expect. The valve traps fluid in the rear suspension cylinders and keeps the rear of the car up. however there is still a very small leakage through the valve and eventually the rear of the car will drop. What happens is that the valve opens, the rear of the car drops and calls for fluid which is then supplied by the pump but there is insufficient pressure for the rear brakes etc. The sphere is there to prevent this happening.
There are numerous postings on anti sink on this site - I suggest you search for some.
jeremy
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uhn113x
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1982 GSA Pallas - on road April - September.
1997 ZX 1.9D Dimension. - x 1
Hello HR (not William Heath Robinson, by any chance?) [:D]
Comments below:
other symptoms include:
brakes will work when engine is turned off.
They should - quite a few times until the line pressure held in the accumulator sphere is dissipated.
front suspension appears only to have 3 positions. base (looks right), normal (which looks about right)and raised driving height. there is no increase from this at the front of the car when the lever is moved into highest position. the back does go up.
That probably just means the HC linkage in the front is all crudded up with road dirt, as has been suggested.
i had wondered whether the front and rear suspension are linked via fluid movement; so the hard flat rear would exacerbate the floating front (noticeable most at motorway speeds)
No, they are not; the fluid is purely there to form a 'linkage' which connects wheels with suspension medium (nitrogen)
Flat rear spheres will affect handling and hammer the rear arms.
any more thoughts gratefully received
Is your LHM crystal-clear green?
Comments below:
other symptoms include:
brakes will work when engine is turned off.
They should - quite a few times until the line pressure held in the accumulator sphere is dissipated.
front suspension appears only to have 3 positions. base (looks right), normal (which looks about right)and raised driving height. there is no increase from this at the front of the car when the lever is moved into highest position. the back does go up.
That probably just means the HC linkage in the front is all crudded up with road dirt, as has been suggested.
i had wondered whether the front and rear suspension are linked via fluid movement; so the hard flat rear would exacerbate the floating front (noticeable most at motorway speeds)
No, they are not; the fluid is purely there to form a 'linkage' which connects wheels with suspension medium (nitrogen)
Flat rear spheres will affect handling and hammer the rear arms.
any more thoughts gratefully received
Is your LHM crystal-clear green?
A specialist like Westroen (www.westroen-spheres.co.uk) wont rip you off and will give you all the advice you need and as few new parts as possible. They are quite busy though.
When the rear spheres are bad the back will bounce all over the place and will affect the front through the fact that it is the other half of the back of the car!
When the rear spheres are bad the back will bounce all over the place and will affect the front through the fact that it is the other half of the back of the car!
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heath robinson
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This stuff becomes addictive. I cant go for long without trying yet another test on the car. And spending hours trawling around this fab forum. If I can fix the car without spending a fortune I’d really like to hang on to it without getting into battle with the dealer. Many years ago I was given a 300 mile lift in a xantia td and was amazed by the comfort level; I’m fairly determined to restore this one if possible. It seems like quite a decent clean car. Having reviewed the contributions (thanks all once again v good of you) I am heading towards putting an order in for the weekend with gsf, probably for 5 spheres (inc accumulator) the only reason I can think to change the 6th, centre rear is if it can contribute to comfort and this is not something I am picking up from comments. Also a sphere tool.
1) Do spheres come with a new seal?
2) I have read that the seal should be greased on installation. What sort of grease; any danger of contaminating the LHM? I have rubber grease from my days of triumph herald callipers; will that be ok?
Yet more info from tests; the accumulator clicks seldom when in normal ride height; without timing maybe every 40 seconds, unless I am trying to move up from flat to higher positions; when trying to lift the car the accumulator starts to click maybe every 3-4 seconds and the red light is on for a long time at tickover, 20 – 30 seconds. Seems very much as you say Jeremy to point to the accumulator.
The rear of the car does I think seem to respond in the way you suggest it should Jeremy to a load (12st) being in the boot.
The idea about the front hc seems spot on. I can find a fourth position by holding the height selector between 2 positions.
I think I am on the build to the weekend; I have a fair amount of experience of old british cars, but feel very intimidated by the citroen its green blood and mass of veins, arteries and valves.
Yes Uhn113x, the name was pinched to reflect my tendency to endlessly try to fix anything rather than throw it. I’ve had my zx for 6 years, fixing control stalks door locks etc and for many years messed around with building a 100bhp 998 imp in a clan and trying to create an adequate cooling system
As for the lhm; I haven’t dared to break into the system to have a look yet. The car has a garage history up to about 72k from memory and written notes of maintenance thereafter. I cannot see any mention of lhm change so fear it will be very old mucky stuff and will need changing. I have read the fabulous detail available via this site about changing lhm and cleaning the system; again very wary about going into the system at the moment; does seem very mysterious stuff that it is possible to muck up quite easily eg air seepage.
3) Has anyone found that changing the rear centre anti sink sphere improves or indeed makes ant difference at all to the ride?
Thanks again
regards
1) Do spheres come with a new seal?
2) I have read that the seal should be greased on installation. What sort of grease; any danger of contaminating the LHM? I have rubber grease from my days of triumph herald callipers; will that be ok?
Yet more info from tests; the accumulator clicks seldom when in normal ride height; without timing maybe every 40 seconds, unless I am trying to move up from flat to higher positions; when trying to lift the car the accumulator starts to click maybe every 3-4 seconds and the red light is on for a long time at tickover, 20 – 30 seconds. Seems very much as you say Jeremy to point to the accumulator.
The rear of the car does I think seem to respond in the way you suggest it should Jeremy to a load (12st) being in the boot.
The idea about the front hc seems spot on. I can find a fourth position by holding the height selector between 2 positions.
I think I am on the build to the weekend; I have a fair amount of experience of old british cars, but feel very intimidated by the citroen its green blood and mass of veins, arteries and valves.
Yes Uhn113x, the name was pinched to reflect my tendency to endlessly try to fix anything rather than throw it. I’ve had my zx for 6 years, fixing control stalks door locks etc and for many years messed around with building a 100bhp 998 imp in a clan and trying to create an adequate cooling system
As for the lhm; I haven’t dared to break into the system to have a look yet. The car has a garage history up to about 72k from memory and written notes of maintenance thereafter. I cannot see any mention of lhm change so fear it will be very old mucky stuff and will need changing. I have read the fabulous detail available via this site about changing lhm and cleaning the system; again very wary about going into the system at the moment; does seem very mysterious stuff that it is possible to muck up quite easily eg air seepage.
3) Has anyone found that changing the rear centre anti sink sphere improves or indeed makes ant difference at all to the ride?
Thanks again
regards
Just take your time and you will be fine, And if anything does go wrong you can garrantee it happened to someone on this site before, it has been invaluble to me!!!
When I bought my xantia it had a very poor maintenence history, but with the help of this forum it now seems to be in A1 health (touch wood)
I would recommend used hydraleane when changing fluid and leave that in the system for a couple of thousand miles, It has worked wonders on mine (97 td), I changed back to normal fluid last week was all done in about 45 minutes including bleeding brakes.
Although I should point out that third time I have changed fluid due to the first time i just changed the fluid for new fluid, after a month or two it was just as dirty again. The cleaner really does a good job and leaves all the muck in the resevoir.[:)]
When I bought my xantia it had a very poor maintenence history, but with the help of this forum it now seems to be in A1 health (touch wood)
I would recommend used hydraleane when changing fluid and leave that in the system for a couple of thousand miles, It has worked wonders on mine (97 td), I changed back to normal fluid last week was all done in about 45 minutes including bleeding brakes.
Although I should point out that third time I have changed fluid due to the first time i just changed the fluid for new fluid, after a month or two it was just as dirty again. The cleaner really does a good job and leaves all the muck in the resevoir.[:)]
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heath robinson
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5 spheres changes. could not get hold of the tool for the weekend so struggled a bit. phoned cit parts dept; what tool? you hit it with a hammer and chisel and then put an oil wrench on it. So down to halfords spent £30 on 3 diff wrenches. 1st chain wrench just snapped straight off. 2nd and 3rd would not do it. Reluctantly got the hammer chisel and goggles out. Found it useful to scribe a mark on sphere to detect movement, so able to do the smallest amount and stop hammer use asap. In fact having moved only a couple of mms, could just turn with wrench.
Also greased the struts with cv grease (is this ok grease?)
And oiled both height adjusters.
The outcome:
The back of the car is very different on a push test; the rear spheres were ready for the bin. The front is not discernibly different. On tick over, when moving from base position to normal ride height, the red light is on for about 10 seconds before it starts to climb
Car’s an ok ride but not much over my old zx. Maybe nostalgia is distorting my recollection of the xantia ride when given a lift a few years ago.
The pulse is less but still present. as you suggested Jeremy the rear spheres have made a difference.
unless this is a feature of xantias when stationary on tick over, it seems there are only a couple of options left:
Flushing and changing the LHM (LHM looks fairly clean, although will need changing as more yellowish/green than the new stuff)?
Changing the rear centre sphere?
Thanks once again to all. I picked up some really useful pointers and felt more confident having a go.
A couple of supplementary Qs:
does the green stuff damage paint like conventional brake fluid?
The strut covers were detached at the top; anyone had any joy getting these back on once off?
regards
Also greased the struts with cv grease (is this ok grease?)
And oiled both height adjusters.
The outcome:
The back of the car is very different on a push test; the rear spheres were ready for the bin. The front is not discernibly different. On tick over, when moving from base position to normal ride height, the red light is on for about 10 seconds before it starts to climb
Car’s an ok ride but not much over my old zx. Maybe nostalgia is distorting my recollection of the xantia ride when given a lift a few years ago.
The pulse is less but still present. as you suggested Jeremy the rear spheres have made a difference.
unless this is a feature of xantias when stationary on tick over, it seems there are only a couple of options left:
Flushing and changing the LHM (LHM looks fairly clean, although will need changing as more yellowish/green than the new stuff)?
Changing the rear centre sphere?
Thanks once again to all. I picked up some really useful pointers and felt more confident having a go.
A couple of supplementary Qs:
does the green stuff damage paint like conventional brake fluid?
The strut covers were detached at the top; anyone had any joy getting these back on once off?
regards
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by heath robinson</i>
Also greased the struts with cv grease (is this ok grease?) <b>(A)</b>
A couple of supplementary Qs:
does the green stuff damage paint like conventional brake fluid? <b>(B)</b>
The strut covers were detached at the top; anyone had any joy getting these back on once off? <b>(C)</b>
regards
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<b>(A)</b> - Yes it should be OK.
<b>(B)</b> - No, but wash it off ASAP in case it stains.
<b>(C)</b> - No, I tried the other day but to me it seems mission impossible.
Alan S
Also greased the struts with cv grease (is this ok grease?) <b>(A)</b>
A couple of supplementary Qs:
does the green stuff damage paint like conventional brake fluid? <b>(B)</b>
The strut covers were detached at the top; anyone had any joy getting these back on once off? <b>(C)</b>
regards
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<b>(A)</b> - Yes it should be OK.
<b>(B)</b> - No, but wash it off ASAP in case it stains.
<b>(C)</b> - No, I tried the other day but to me it seems mission impossible.
Alan S
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heath robinson
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 25 Jun 2004, 16:41
- Location:
- My Cars:
<font color="limegreen">Pulse/vibration in the car = the pump?</font id="limegreen">
Between 750 & 1500rpm still pronounced.
What symptoms does a weak pump produce?
Done a search on this site and checked some stuff; seems no air intake leak; will check the filters today hopefully (and clean with petrol?), but guess they will not be the cause.
LHM is yellowish green but again guess a change will not make that much difference.
Can, just, feel pulse feedback through power steering suggesting inefficiency of pumping?
Also present on lowest suspension setting.
Least evident when parked uphill (bonnet high) on my very steep drive (on normal ride height.)
With the bonnet up on tickover you can hear the pump working when steering is moved; nothing too much though; surely some hydraulic noise on steering is to be expected? Or should it be silent?
Any words of wisdom from those of you in the know gratefully received
regards
Between 750 & 1500rpm still pronounced.
What symptoms does a weak pump produce?
Done a search on this site and checked some stuff; seems no air intake leak; will check the filters today hopefully (and clean with petrol?), but guess they will not be the cause.
LHM is yellowish green but again guess a change will not make that much difference.
Can, just, feel pulse feedback through power steering suggesting inefficiency of pumping?
Also present on lowest suspension setting.
Least evident when parked uphill (bonnet high) on my very steep drive (on normal ride height.)
With the bonnet up on tickover you can hear the pump working when steering is moved; nothing too much though; surely some hydraulic noise on steering is to be expected? Or should it be silent?
Any words of wisdom from those of you in the know gratefully received
regards