Help - I've messed up...

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Armidillo
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by Armidillo »

MattBLancs wrote: 08 Oct 2023, 08:09 Also I'm amazed that CV could have pulled out, seems very much more keen to pop out the gearbox and give a puddle of gearbox oil in my experience!
If you're talking about 406s, then that's been my experience too!
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

No oil on the floor Matt, so perhaps its "on the edge" of popping out :lol:

I also notice if I rotate the brake disc, the opposite wheel turns in the opposite direction, so it must be connected in some manner.

Very strange, but I'll open up the CV joint today.
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MattBLancs
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Armidillo wrote: 08 Oct 2023, 08:50
MattBLancs wrote: 08 Oct 2023, 08:09 Also I'm amazed that CV could have pulled out, seems very much more keen to pop out the gearbox and give a puddle of gearbox oil in my experience!
If you're talking about 406s, then that's been my experience too!
When working on 206, 306, 406 (all BE gearboxes) I've now got to the stage of just draining the gearbox oil before I start! Spent more time attempting to not let it pop out the box (and normal let my guard down at some point to be defeated by it anyway! :-D )

My C5 (different ML gearbox) I think it was equally keen on exiting the box - I think I was changing the boxes oil at the same time so had drained that too.

c16rkc - interesting feedback about wheel turning, if it had popped out then you'd be relying on the boot itself to pull things round, so seems unlikely it had disconnected
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

Thanks Matt, so in that case it sounds like its perhaps "nearly" come out of the gearbox then. Hopefully I can encourage it back in...
thorter
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by thorter »

Catch 22 - I suspect you will not get the driveshaft nut off unless the siuspension is secured back on its fixings. So hope that you can get the inner joint back. Try at all costs not to allow the needle rollers to escape!
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

That sounds worrying...

Well I feel pretty sure its the CV joint now. The clue was that it was stretched out, and yet did not push back together. So I opened it up to see... and was greeted with this! :(
20231008_102629.jpg
A bit lighter
A bit lighter
Its not very clear... but all the insides of the CV joint are hanging out, and just barely pressuring against the tulip so that they make enough purchase to grip and turn the gearbox side of the driveshaft.

So being as I am a coward, and they are not too badly priced, I'm thinking of just replacing the entire driveshaft. :lol:

Either way its all new things for me...
Last edited by myglaren on 08 Oct 2023, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Altered Image.
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MattBLancs
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Changing CV joint boots is a messy job but pretty straight forward, am sure you'd manage it without issue.

It's not lost it's needle bearings so a good wipe, re-grease and reinstate the boot (assuming not damaged) would be my recommendation.

Much discussion on CV boot retaining bands here:
viewtopic.php?p=685559#p685559
RichardW
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by RichardW »

If you just rotate the two halves of the drive shaft against each other a little bit so the rollers line up with the slots in the cup, it should slide back in. Only the boot holds this type together - it's not actually a CV, it's a tri-ax joint... This one takes up the in / out movement so pretty much only operates in only one plane, whereas the CV has to cope with steering and up / down so operates in 2 planes ( and has minimal in/out capability).
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MattBLancs
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Nice terminology here:

viewtopic.php?p=772086#p772086

The tulip and the spider. Either code words for some sort of NASA mission ( "base, the tulip has left the spider, over" ) or very euphemistic! ( "All he wanted to do was put his spider in my tulip, if you know what I mean") depending on how you mind works! :rofl2:

When you see the two sub components (without the grease) then the two names are spot on really!
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

Well that does change things somewhat, if I can just push that back in, it would be fantastic :)

I just gave it a try just now, but oddly it will not budge a mm. Almost as though there is an obstacle behind.

I'll await the arrival of my 35mm socket, disconnect the hub, and try it with just the driveshaft.
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CitroJim
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by CitroJim »

c16rkc wrote: 08 Oct 2023, 14:08
I just gave it a try just now, but oddly it will not budge a mm. Almost as though there is an obstacle behind.
There's normally a spring behind the spider Chris... It's not usually a hugely strong one though...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

Thanks Jim, I don't seem to be able to push it further in at all oddly, can pull it a mm or two further out, but it seems not to want to go further back in.

Very odd...
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MattBLancs
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Ignore me about shaft pulling out the gearbox, I've just seen the crank pulley in the edge of the shot and realised I'm describing the other side.

Right side has a two piece shaft, first bit held by a bearing, the tri-ax joint (thanks RichardW - every day is a school day! I'd have called them both CV but aware the outer is different design and capable of much greater angles) immediately afterwards.

As others have said, pull the driveshaft to wheel section away a bit, twist then back into the tulip again. It should "re-mesh" at some point.

I've a sinking feeling about the rear most roller (IE Only one not visible in that image) having dropped to bits and said bits being in the way, but let's ignore that doom and gloom option for the moment.

I think the spring can also get in the way a bit, again, pull away then back in again seems to sort that normally
thorter
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by thorter »

As already said, it should be possible to get the triax joint back together. Perhaps use an old knife to scrape away enough grease in the tulip part to see where the three drive shaft rollers go. Just deposit this grease into the rubber boot.

However, you will need to check that the third roller has not come off its drive pin. Unfortunately if it has, its needle rollers will probably be all over the place, hopefully at least some still in the spherical roller. Recover the rest with a strong magnet, then stick them all back in the roller with grease. There should no more space for another needle roller when they are all fitted, and make sure they are well stuck, then carefully fit the roller to the pin.

Once you get the triax joint reassembled, it may be a good idea to rig up string, rope etc to hold it towards the gearbox to stop it coming out again. The spring inside the tulip is to keep that pressed into the gearbox, otherwise if it comes away the oil will run out. Best of luck.
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c16rkc
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Re: Help - I've messed up...

Unread post by c16rkc »

A part way update...

So I proceeded, armed with the knowledge that Jim and Oldpug were spot on with their very first diagnosis, and my Spider has indeed come out of my Tulip... :shock:

I hoped I could push it back in, bit even when I lined it up, it firmly refused to go in!!

What I did realise, is that the bearings are fixed on the spider very well, and I have had no lost needle rollers - they seem to be put together pretty well.#

I removed the lower arm to rule out the possibility that this was what was stopping me from pushing in the spider, as it was in the way... in doing so I noticed the bush on the end is very tired, and the centre one is showing signs of decay too, so a new arm has been ordered.... :lol: when will this ever end!
20231008_165801.jpg
But this did not help... and my spider carried on being a reluctant sod!

I gave the threaded head in the middle of the brake disk (the exposed end of the driveshaft) a few firm whacks with the hammer, hoping to shock the spider back in there... and knowing it was a stupid thing to do... but that did not help either. This stupid decision cost me dearly later on... :shock: :?

It puzzles me that the spider will not go back in, but it seems as though the bottom bearing firms up when I push, and I think its an interference fit into the tulip. The top two bearings are still loose, as because of the driveshaft angle they are not yet pushed against the inner shell of the tulip. I wonder if it will work better when the driveshaft is straight... and for that it needed to be released from the hub!

I needed my 35mm socket.

At 4:30pm (ish) my new 34 and 35mm sockets arrive; as advised the hub is indeed 35mm as everyone advised. Thank you Amazon :-D
20231008_161107.jpg
But then came the fun and games getting the hub nut off, because the hub was just spinning. In the end I inserted two wheel bolts, and wedged a screwdriver against the wheel bolts and brake caliper. With a pit of perseverance I managed to release the hub nut.
20231008_173346.jpg
This felt very stupid and unsafe... but I did it anyway, and it worked :roll:

So then I realised just how stupid my fun with the hammer and the end of the driveshaft had been earlier... :roll:

I grinned foolishly, as the lug nut turned freely a couple of revolutions, then my face dropped as it bough back up. Yes you have probably guessed it... my hammer has damaged the end of the driveshaft, causing a sort of mushroom effect at the end. This caused chaos with the nut and turning it was excruciatingly difficult!

I got it 1/4 of the way off, and then noticed it was 5pm, I needed to go in and sort the boys dinner (Lindsey was out having fun after attending a wedding show with some friends). So I cleaned up and finished for the day. I think I'll end up backing the nut back off, and cleaning up the end of the driveshaft with a file.... what a prat I am! :wink: :roll: :o #-o