2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

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parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
04 Jun 2022, 08:58
Consider getting original parts from Citroen if you want OEM quality - but LUK or Valeo clutches are used as OEM parts.

If you want original Citroen part numbers for both we can supply these, but as we are charged for this data, we ask for a membership upgrade for this service:

If you can't already find the info you need on the Forum, we do ask for a membership upgrade for official parts data as we are in turn charged for this. It will cover you for future parts requests for up to 2 years, so excellent value.

If interested, links are below, then pop your VIN up.
A response to your question by a Forum Admin requiring parts or additional information requires you to have made a current contribution (£10 min.) to the Forum.
To Upgrade Your Membership & Donate Click Here

For Further Information About Vehicle Parts and VIN Numbers Click Here
Hi Marc , I already posted the VIN up - please see my second post on this thread and first reply to you.

I have happily donated - and will continue to do so - hopefully for the next 10 years at least - as I intend to maintain and keep the car for that long.

Due to labour costs - I'm really interested in your opinion about :

1) The correct sequence in which to diagnose the problem - it seems to be :
a) Check the two measurements above and report back - I think the slave is 17mm but I will provide confirmation of this and the master cylinder travel measurement today.
b) If these are two short (as I suspect) then replace these two - I can source original parts through ebay Germany and they don't seem to be expensive :
Master cylinder : https://www.ebay.de/itm/175270717103
Bosch slave cylinder : https://www.ebay.de/itm/133866976507
(I use Bosch a lot in my BMW and have found them to have good realiability but please correct me here as this is your domain and I will stick with your recommendation)

Question to the above should I not first replace the slave and see if that remedies the problem or is it better to replace both since they both draw off the brake fluid - which also is due for replacement ?
Second question - do you think a moderately skilled mechanic like myself (no access to vacuum pump) should undertake it or best left to a garage?

c) If problem persists then proceed to order a clutch kit - together with DMF - for LuK I can get a heavily discounted clutch kit for less than 200 euro here :
https://www.ebay.de/itm/313390691605?fi ... SwimdgCrq6

or the entire thing with DMF here for just over 300 from Valeo :
https://www.ebay.de/itm/224345540920?fi ... SwkPlgIly3

Again I don't intend to skimp on the parts here - number one is reliability once installed.
Did i get the sequence correct?
Thanks again for your help Marc. I really do appreciate it.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Ok first measurement : slave cylinder travel is 15mm , master cylinder travel is 20mm (second one is probably high)
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so first of all, thank you for your Forum donation. Any future parts requests, please post them up here:

viewtopic.php?t=69962

Ok so here is the diagram for the Master and Slave clutch cylinders:

Clutch Cylinders
Parn Clutch Cyls.PNG
(3) is the Master Cylinder, Part: 218283, £108.29
(4) is the Slave Cylinder, Part: 2182Y8, £72.22

Clutch Kit
Parn Clutch Kit.PNG
(1) OEM Part: 1611271880, £553.13
Exchange Clutch Kit Part: 2051R4, £289.90
(5) Clutch Fork Part: 9808513380, £56.28

Dual Mass Flywheel
Parn DMF.PNG
(11) OEM Part: 9800982980, £797.24
Reconditioned DMF Part: 1613939080, £478.02
(13) DMF XHead Lock bolts part: 053754 £1.28 each (you need 8 of these).

All these prices are direct from Citroen UK of course and include our VAT @ 20%. With these part numbers it should help you source the correct parts using the OEM part numbers.

As for the sequence - I just posted up the sequence for checking the slave and master, with the slave being first, then go onto the master.

I do think that if it was clutch or DMF failing, you would have noticed it starting to slip, and given the engagement issues, I think you should start with the slave cylinder first.
wheeler
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by wheeler »

parnell wrote:
04 Jun 2022, 12:28


Question to the above should I not first replace the slave and see if that remedies the problem or is it better to replace both since they both draw off the brake fluid - which also is due for replacement ?
Second question - do you think a moderately skilled mechanic like myself (no access to vacuum pump) should undertake it or best left to a garage?
Definitely just replace the Slave first, The slave is a way more common failure than the master and the slave is also a really easy DIY job. Don't think I've ever had to use a vac pump to bleed one either.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

wheeler wrote:
05 Jun 2022, 09:42
parnell wrote:
04 Jun 2022, 12:28


Question to the above should I not first replace the slave and see if that remedies the problem or is it better to replace both since they both draw off the brake fluid - which also is due for replacement ?
Second question - do you think a moderately skilled mechanic like myself (no access to vacuum pump) should undertake it or best left to a garage?
Definitely just replace the Slave first, The slave is a way more common failure than the master and the slave is also a really easy DIY job. Don't think I've ever had to use a vac pump to bleed one either.
Thanks a lot wheeler - that's exactly what I was looking for
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Ok guys , back to the job at hand - finally managed to get herself to help (a bit)... I do believe you're correct and the problem is hydraulic - if for no other reason than the brake fluid reservoir fluid level is significantly over the max line indication on the reservoir.
We had a go at bleeding :
  • first by taking off the reservoir lid and pumping the clutch
    next by manually moving the slave cylinder back and forth
I'm going to try to bleed the system next by the bleed valve on the slave cylinder.

The car has been inside in a perfectly dry garage for nearly 2 weeks - there is certainly no leaks of any kind that I can tell.
Finally when I started her today I could easily engage any gear - have to say that I still am pretty uncomfortable with the sponginess of the clutch - my other car's clutch pedal is far more firm.
It is very surprising to me however that the brakes are solid as a rock - I guess that simply means that the air pockets are solely in the clutch system.
Again thanks for all the help and suggestions -here's some pics for reference.
Attachments
slave cylinder at rest - very clean
slave cylinder at rest - very clean
brake fluid reservoir - overfull
brake fluid reservoir - overfull
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Ok quick update on the bleeding - had the helper put his foot on the clutch and opened the bleed valve on the slave - we did get a couple of small bubbles but very little. What surprised me was he had to pull the clutch pedal back up - could the problem then be with the master cylinder or the line from the reservoir to the master cylinder?
Thanks again.
Rp0thejester
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

I don't know what other car you have but in my experience each clutch is different. I had a T reg Xsara which I always stalled but my work van was a transit and never stalled it. At this point I would say master cylinder.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Thanks a lot Rp0thejester - I haven't actually replaced the slave yet - mostly as again I dont see any kind of leaking at all - but if you guys think I should still go ahead and do that first I will.
Rp0thejester
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

A leak may not be visible externally. An internal leak is alot harder to find. Replace slave, if that doesn't work then do master.
Rp0thejester
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by Rp0thejester »

Like i said, clutches are different for each vehicle. My C8s clutch is 'soft' compared to other vehicles and has alot more 'travel' in the pedal than other cars. Trust Marc on this, slave then master, he's never lead me wrong so far.....
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

One more thing - which other C8 owners/folks might be able to help me with - if I look at Marc's picture of the clutch cylinder above - part number 7 - the spring - looks like it should operate linearly - if I look at it in my C8 it looks like a horseshoe when no pressure is applied to the pedal. Don't know why I didnt spot that before but could that be it? Its well greased mind. Thanks again. P.S. I will swap out the slave in the next few days and report back unless someone tells me I am a fool and of course its the spring.
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

Some pics of the spring configuration and pedal position
Attachments
spring2.jpeg
spring1.jpeg
clutchpedalposition.jpeg
wheeler
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by wheeler »

Yes that spring is definitely not right, the spring should always be straight no matter where it is in it's travel. Maybe parts 5 or 6 broken?
I dont think i have ever noticed one being yellow either, maybe not even the right spring? Maybe somone else with a C8 could check the colour of their spring?
parnell
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Re: 2012 Citroen C8 2.0 Hdi FAP 165 Clutch ???

Post by parnell »

thanks a lot wheeler -it could be my eyes but I see that colour as orange. Marc could you please comment and/provide part numbers for items 5, 6 & 7?

After taking away the floor pan I got some nice shots of the slave cylinder at rest and with full pressure on the pedal. The distance travelled is 14mm - so this explains fully the problem - now need to find the source.

Also got a shot of the spring - this time with pressure on the pedal.

Quick couple of questions :

Should I unbolt the slave cylinder before I remove the circlip on the brake fluid line or rather the other way around ?
When installing the slave should I try to depress it as much as possible before clipping in the brake fluid line to reduce the amount of air or it doesnt matter?

Thanks everyone for your help.
Attachments
slave full pressure.jpeg
clutch pedal spring full pressure.jpeg
slave no pressure.jpeg