Engine turning over but refusing to start

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusingto start

Post by KennyW »

Quick update, check fuel filter Not clogged, heard the fuel gurgling as it ran back to the tank. NO blockage from filter to tank. Also thought I would check injectors no fuel and lovely and dry.
But car went into Economy mode so unable to use Diagbox.So unable to do further checks underneath re when under shield was dislodged last week.
Can I put a trickle charger on the battery and boost the battery then use Diagbox ?
Also can the wiring diagram for fuel pump be added to the thread. Is there a fuse and any relays in the system ?
Hoping it's something simple to fix as HDi fuel pump new is extortionate. Even the HP fuel regulator is £100.

Thanks in advance

Kenny
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 26535
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 3104

Re: Engine turning over but refusingto start

Post by GiveMeABreak »

There's no separate wiring diagram for the fuel pump - it's all on the main injection diagram that I've put up before Kenny:

You can temporarily switch off economy mode using Diagbox for up to an hour IIRC. I think it's in the BSI menu - which if you have issues with you can just keep the engine running whilst you do that.

Just pop up the fault codes when you can.

Image

1208 is the Diesel Injection Pump
1321 is the Diesel High Pressure Sensor

Location

Image
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusingto start

Post by KennyW »

Marc,
The engine turns over but does not start at all.

So just to clarify I can plug in Diagbox and access the BSI whilst it's in eco mode.

Also I have noticed the diesel HP regulator 1322 is not shown unless I've missed it. It's attached to the fuel pump.

Kenny
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 26535
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 3104

Re: Engine turning over but refusingto start

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Sorry Kenny - I was being a bit of a numpty there - of course without the engine starting that's not going to happen. I think you need to get the battery out and give it a day or so to charge. Before I put my X7 shunt fuse into Park Mode not long into the start of the pandemic where it wasn't getting used, it took nearly 2 days to charge on a trickle at low amps using a smart charger.
wheeler
Posts: 5376
Joined: 21 Sep 2002, 19:07
x 340

Re: Engine turning over but refusingto start

Post by wheeler »

Economy mode should not stop diagbox communicating.
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by KennyW »

Okay thanks for the replies.

Can't get much done over the next few days, other duties.

Can I confirm the basic operation of the injection system at start up is as follows:

Ignition is turn on and starter motor turns over engine causing fuel to be drawn from tank through filter by HP pressure pump (low pressure part of system) pump increases the pressure on the diesel through the common rail into injectors and sprayed into head, regulator controls the pressure and the sensor controls the speed and amount injected. Diesel is ignited by compression.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

Further can I confirm HP pump is a Bosch make.

Kenny
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by KennyW »

Another update,
Battery charged up, Diagbox attached and obtained the following codes from Injection ignition ecu

P2291 staring monitor - rise in pressure in the injection rail is too slow on starting

P1164 Pressure sensor on the injection rail - incoherence in the starting value

P0017 Starting monitor - Synchronisation time too long

P0336 engine speed sensor - Signal absent on starting

Thoughts please

Kenny
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9701
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 507

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by RichardW »

Sounds like the crank sensor has gone TU. I think there was a post on this recently... If you go into live data can you see the engine speed when cranking?
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9701
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 507

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by RichardW »

Also, what is the rail pressure showing when cranking? I'm sure I also recall a thread somewhere where the drive for the HP fuel pump had snapped off the end of the cam shaft.....
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by KennyW »

Thanks for the reply Richard,

I only have the live data when the faults were recorded:

P2291 Rail pressure setting 390 bar

measured fuel pressure 77 bar

P1164 Rail pressure setting 300bar

measured pressure setting 225 bar

I've changed the crankshaft sensor twice in the last year but found second time around it was a broken wire.

Kenny
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1171
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 17:08
x 172

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by moizeau »

You should be able to take the crank position sensor out of the equation if it shows as sync'd with the cam when turning over
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 26535
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 3104

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Kenny - here are the fault descriptors for the faults as promised:
Fault Code: P0336
Description of Fault:Engine speed sensor: Signal absent when starting. Engine speed sensor absent detected for 2 s when starting
Conditions for Fault to clear: 10 successive starts
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
Symptoms: Starting problem, Jerking/stalling
Suspect Areas: Engine speed sensor, Connectors, The electrical harness, Engine speed sensor target

Fault Code: P0017
Description of Fault: Starting monitoring: Synchronisation time too long. Synchronisation time of more than 2 s between the camshaft sensor and the engine speed sensor.
Conditions for Fault to clear: 10 successive starts.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
Symptoms: Starting problem
Suspect Areas: Camshaft sensor, Camshaft pulley, Engine speed sensor target, Engine speed sensor, Timing Belt, Electrical harnesses, Connectors

Fault Code: P1164
Description of Fault: Pressure sensor on the fuel injection rail Incoherence on the value when starting. Plausibility fault. Gradual drift in the rail pressure prior to starting of more than 55 bars at 20 °C (For 0,3 second).
Conditions for Fault to clear: Starting after a wait of more than 5 min following a stopping of the engine
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
  • Deactivation of the ASR (Wheel anti-skid)
  • Performance of ESP settings impossible
  • Deactivation of the strategy for monitoring the current of the fuel flow regulation valve
  • Deactivation of the after-sales test for detection of leaks on the diesel fuel high pressure circuit
  • Prohibition of the combustion mode that encourages regeneration
  • Deactivation of the kick-down for automatic gearboxes
  • Limitation of performance
  • Deactivation of the injector resetting strategy
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control (Need to switch the ignition off and then on, in order to make the function available again)
Symptoms: Engine hesitating, cutting out, Engine acceleration at wrong time, Noise, Smoke from the exhaust, Lack of power, Starting problem.
Suspect Areas: Fuel high pressure common injection rail pressure sensor, Connector, Electrical harness, Engine ECU

Fault Code: P2291
Description of Fault: Starting monitoring: Pressure increase in the injection rail too slow when starting. Difference between the pressure measured in the fuel high pressure common rail and the reference, of less than 100 bars, reached after a period greater than 6 seconds.
Conditions for Fault to clear: 10 successive starts
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
Symptoms: Engine hesitating, cutting out, Starting problem, Lack of power, Fluid leak / Smells, Diesel fuel consumption a bit higher, Engine stop downgraded, Smoke from the exhaust.
Suspect Areas:
  • Gasoil filter: Clogging - Leak
  • Fuel: Lack of fuel
  • Fuel flow regulation valve: Flow regulator jammed - Electrical harness
  • High pressure fuel pump: Mechanical pressure limiter jammed - Leak - Compression stage not working - Electrical harness
  • Diesel injector high pressure pipes: Leak
  • Fuel high pressure common injection rail: Leak
  • Fuel injectors: Electrical failure - Electrical harness
  • Camshafts: Breaking of the high pressure pump drive tap
  • Camshaft pulley: Breaking
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2022
Posts: 2212
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 22:22
x 71

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by KennyW »

Thanks Marc,

Still baffled but crankshaft and camshaft sensors are not in sync, this is mentioned in P0336. No smells or leaks so far I'm going to check underneath.

A fortnight ago during heavy raining struck the under shield dislodging several plastic push in clips but no obvious damage was seen. I believe this where the fuel supply and return pipe run. No obvious leaks seen but if a small slit or hole appeared possible problem. Further inspection to be done.

Any other thoughts suggestions gratefully accepted.

Kenny
User avatar
moizeau
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1171
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 17:08
x 172

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by moizeau »

If cam and crank aren't sync'd it won't start
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9701
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 507

Re: Engine turning over but refusing to start

Post by RichardW »

You need to get it back on Diagbox and get the live data when cranking. Are you getting a speed reading? Is it 180 rpm or so? Does the cam / crank switch to yes? Is it showing fuel pressure, and if so is it above 100 bar?