1.6 THP P0336 No starter

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utdminiman
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1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

Afternoon all,

I have a feeling I know the answer to this but worth a shout anyways.

Driving home from work yesterday in my DS3 (2011 1.6 THP petrol) accelerate out of a junction pretty heavily then suddenly power loss, revs drop to 0, and warning light etc.

Managed to pull over, scanned the car and only had the P0336 error code (Camshaft Position Sensor B Circuit Range/Performance Bank 1). Had tried to restart the engine since I was very close to home and it did crank and was very lumpy (sounded awful) but would never turn the engine on.

As I was saying that I guess I know what it is, I imagine the timing chain has failed / jumped which I imagine has destroyed or at least damaged the valves, pistons, head etc. The one thing that confuses me though is I would have thought there would be more than one code for something like this?

Haven't had a chance to look at it yet since I've got to work over the weekend but was wondering if anyone had any similar experiences / ideas and maybe a glimmer of hope that it's not all doom and gloom!

Cheers,
T
Hell Razor5543
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

How many miles has she done? Has the timing belt/been changed?

It is possible that the sensor itself has failed. If it has, the engine cannot run, as it does not know where the crankshaft is (in relation to rotation), so the injection ECU does not 'know' when to inject fuel into the cylinders.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi

Here is some further detail on this fault, so the engine speed sensor is the first suspect.
Fault Code: P0336
Description of Fault:Engine speed sensor signal: Not plausible. Detection of a disturbance of the engine speed signal (Tooth too long; missing teeth…)

A disturbance of the engine speed signal exists if the number of plausibility errors reaches the threshold 20.

The following conditions have to be met to trigger this fault:
  • - Engine management ECU in main triggering phase
  • Engine running
  • Monitoring of the camshaft signal done at each camshaft tooth signal
  • Starter motor not monitored
  • No malfunctioning of the engine speed signal
  • Vehicle speed higher than 25 km/h
  • Engine speed above 200 rpm
Conditions for Fault to clear:
The following conditions have to be met:
  • - For each engine rev without disturbance, the deletion counter is decremented.
  • If the 2 counters reach 0, the fault is deleted.
  • During the natural opening position phase of the motorised butterfly housing with the crankshaft fault, no deletion can be effected.
  • Absence of crankshaft signal.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
  • Adaptation of the oxygen sensor regulation stopped.
  • The parameters "engine speed", "actual torque", "torque requested by the driver after processing" and "torque anticipated after processing" assume values that are invalid.
  • The operation of the additional cooling fan by the engine load is deactivated.
  • Operation of the additional cooling fan for idling is activated.
  • Checking of camshafts by tester impossible.
  • Recognition of the engine stop position and recognition of rolling back, deactivated.
Symptoms:
  • Starting impossible
  • Stalling at idle
  • Cutting out under load
Suspect Areas:
  • Engine speed sensor
  • Engine ECU
  • Electrical harness
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:
06 Nov 2021, 17:36
How many miles has she done? Has the timing belt/been changed?

It is possible that the sensor itself has failed. If it has, the engine cannot run, as it does not know where the crankshaft is (in relation to rotation), so the injection ECU does not 'know' when to inject fuel into the cylinders.
It's just ticked over over 80k last month, and haven't changed the timing since I've had it (March 2017) but kept on top of oil changes, and replaced VVT and tensioner a couple of times to be on the safe side.

I'm hoping it's something like the sensor, planning on getting it out and testing it with the voltmeter when I get home.
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
06 Nov 2021, 18:08
Hi

Here is some further detail on this fault, so the engine speed sensor is the first suspect.
Fault Code: P0336
Description of Fault:Engine speed sensor signal: Not plausible. Detection of a disturbance of the engine speed signal (Tooth too long; missing teeth…)

A disturbance of the engine speed signal exists if the number of plausibility errors reaches the threshold 20.

The following conditions have to be met to trigger this fault:
  • - Engine management ECU in main triggering phase
  • Engine running
  • Monitoring of the camshaft signal done at each camshaft tooth signal
  • Starter motor not monitored
  • No malfunctioning of the engine speed signal
  • Vehicle speed higher than 25 km/h
  • Engine speed above 200 rpm
Conditions for Fault to clear:
The following conditions have to be met:
  • - For each engine rev without disturbance, the deletion counter is decremented.
  • If the 2 counters reach 0, the fault is deleted.
  • During the natural opening position phase of the motorised butterfly housing with the crankshaft fault, no deletion can be effected.
  • Absence of crankshaft signal.
Downgrade Modes whilst Fault is active:
  • Adaptation of the oxygen sensor regulation stopped.
  • The parameters "engine speed", "actual torque", "torque requested by the driver after processing" and "torque anticipated after processing" assume values that are invalid.
  • The operation of the additional cooling fan by the engine load is deactivated.
  • Operation of the additional cooling fan for idling is activated.
  • Checking of camshafts by tester impossible.
  • Recognition of the engine stop position and recognition of rolling back, deactivated.
Symptoms:
  • Starting impossible
  • Stalling at idle
  • Cutting out under load
Suspect Areas:
  • Engine speed sensor
  • Engine ECU
  • Electrical harness
Thanks for that, gives me some hope I might be able to fix it myself!

Funnily enough, I had just bought new o2 sensor, air filter, oil filter and some other TLC parts to give it a bit of a service Monday before it gets too cold!

Will have a look into it when I can, I'll probably take the spark plugs out first and look for damage on the piston (interference engine so might show some signs of 'damage') if that's not conclusive I'll take the head off and give it a gander to see how bad it is. Then I'll look at replacing camshaft sensor, o2 sensors and giving it a bit of a once over and see it can start.

Is there any idea if a new battery would help? I know it's getting to the end of it's life (3 year) but would seem quite a failure for it to go so suddenly and it seemed happy enough to keep the radio, hazard lights etc on whilst I waited for a tow.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Your battery should be good for at least 5 years - but depends of course on use / Stop Start (if fitted) etc.

If you are replacing the sensor, the best bit of advice I can give you is get a decent OEM / branded one - don't take chances with things like this and try and avoid ECP!
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by wheeler »

Can you see any of the camshafts through the oil filler cap hole? if so have a look & see if the camshaft is turning when someone cranks the engine.
Does the engine sound like its turning over faster than normal? almost like a whirring noise? You normally get this with no or low compression.
If it was just a failed crank sensor i wouldnt expect the engine to sound any different when cranking but you say it sounded awful?
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
06 Nov 2021, 18:43
Your battery should be good for at least 5 years - but depends of course on use / Stop Start (if fitted) etc.

If you are replacing the sensor, the best bit of advice I can give you is get a decent OEM / branded one - don't take chances with things like this and try and avoid ECP!
Thanks for the advice, was looking at ERA, or Bosch who I think do most of the other sensors so will try find one of them I can hopefully pick up rather than wait half a week for delivery
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

wheeler wrote:
06 Nov 2021, 18:49
Can you see any of the camshafts through the oil filler cap hole? if so have a look & see if the camshaft is turning when someone cranks the engine.
Does the engine sound like its turning over faster than normal? almost like a whirring noise? You normally get this with no or low compression.
If it was just a failed crank sensor i wouldnt expect the engine to sound any different when cranking but you say it sounded awful?
Haven't had a chance to look yet but I'll give it a go. I've got a borescope at home so hopefully should be able to see. It's not a whirring noise and it's definitely doing something but it's the usual initial start up sound but then it's quite slow and lumpy and the engine moves the car quite a bit in maybe 0.5 to 1 second 'lumps' / intervals then cuts out.

Like you said if there was no / little compression the engine would just whir as it span round with little to no resistance but there is definitely trying to happen just won't switch on. I'll try get some audio tomorrow if I can't pick up a sensor.
wheeler
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by wheeler »

I suppose its slightly different when a timing belt breaks you get the engine spinning fast & the whirring noise but when its a chain it can sometimes bunch up & jam causing horrible metallic noises & can actually restrict the engine turning.
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

Ah yeah my bad is timing chain, but that's what I'm thinking might be pretty messy in there! Hopefully not!
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by xantia_v6 »

A compression test might be a good investment.

I would try turning it over with the coils unplugged anyway to hear it without it trying to fire.
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

Funny enough was tempted to get a compression tester recently just in case. But I think I've found the problem.

Not the crankshaft sensor that was the problem but the teeth were bent with one slightly bent, one very bent +45° and maybe one missing.
Doubt it's something I can fix at home so will be taking into the garage. Anyone have any ideas of causes and would it also cock up the timing?
Cheers everyone will keep you updated with what the garage say!
Attachments
Bent, very bent and potentially missing teeth
Bent, very bent and potentially missing teeth
Hard to get a good photo but you can just about see it
Hard to get a good photo but you can just about see it
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by GiveMeABreak »

See my post here that shows this issue:

viewtopic.php?p=701603#p701603
utdminiman
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Re: 1.6 THP P0336 No starter

Post by utdminiman »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 17:17
See my post here that shows this issue:

viewtopic.php?p=701603#p701603
Cheers Marc.

Have you got any idea how to get to it / get it out, doesn't seem much access from under the car also slightly limited to what I can do since it's parked on the side of the road so might need to get it towed.

Also don't think there are any HPFP problems since I replaced that 4 months ago.

Also had the VVT and tensioner done a similar time so hoping it's not timing related.

Hopefully if I can get the teeth replaced / fixed and replace the sensor we should have a starter.