2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

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Haroon123
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Haroon123 »

Paul-R wrote:
24 Sep 2020, 17:50
Tank arrived today. Remarkable service from Poland; I've had far worse delivery times from vendors in the UK.

Car is booked in for next Tuesday.
Could I have the details of where you ordered this part please
As I have the same problem as you
And would like to order one
Thank you
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Paul-R
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Paul-R »

I'll look it up shortly but first some questions.

How old is the car?
How many miles has it done?
Has it been regularly serviced, preferably in a Peugeot dealer?

In case anyone is interested we've done 900 miles since the tank was replaced (a lot less than normal for obvious reasons!) and everything seems fine.
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Paul-R
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Paul-R »

This is the one I bought

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-Peu ... 2749.l2649

The vendor has a "Make an Offer" button and so I put in a cheeky offer of €550. They came back with €600 which I accepted. €15 is better in my pocket than someone else's!

I was "lucky" that we had the problem while the UK was still in the customs union and free trade area and so it had a frictionless delivery to me. The vendor is still showing that they will ship to the UK (some Ebay sellers have said they won't send things to the UK now) but you may have to pay import duty and UK VAT as one of the benefits of being outside the EU now. It might still be cheaper than buying in the UK though.

It doesn't make any practical difference but it's interesting to note that the vendor is based in Germany but the tank is sent from Poland.
Tom309
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Tom309 »

Hi Paul,
Summary: I have a favour to ask. You suggested in an earlier post that "I've taken the old tank back so I'm curious to see if there's anything obviously wrong with the pump and/or electronics". If you still have your old, 308 adblue tank please can you measure the resistance of heater element that is inside the tank. Reasons and details below:

I've also had the dreaded low pressure Urea, loss of communication to the Denox, "Starting prevented in 700 miles", ... on my 2015 308. Note 6yrs old + 126.5kmiles so don't believe that Peugeot will do anything on the extended warranty for this pump/tank which I have read is for up to 5yrs & 150km (93kmiles).

So stripped out the pumps and electronics and found that the pressure reservoir (part of the pump module) had leaked from the diaphragm and deposited adblue over the pcb. This then corroded a couple of tracks on the pcb (one track to the Canbus & another to the relay). I've repaired these but also need to replace a Mosfet that drives the adblue pump and then repair or find a replacement pressure reservoir.

Also some adblue may also have gone down the cable hole to the electronics inside the tank. So I wish to check that these are still working as if they aren't, then a new tank is required. I have checked the temperature and level sensors by plugging the partially repaired unit back into the car and they change with the temperature and removing or adding fluid. So ok. Running the heating element test through Diagbox - fails. I don't know if this is due to a partial short on the heater element inside the tank, or the dead Mosfet, or not driving Diabox correctly. I have measured the resistance on mine as approximately 1.2 ohms, which is maybe a little low. So if you can, would you please measure the resistance of the heater. It is connected between the blue and green wires on the white plug shown below.
heater wire.jpg
Thanks in advance,
Tom
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Paul-R
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Paul-R »

Sorry it's taken a week to get this done. I measured the resistance as 1.4Ω. The probes touching together measure 0.4Ω and so that gives 1.0Ω, which is close to your figure.

Assuming mine is not also wrong of course! This may be the problem on both.

It's a shame I didn't know to measure the resistance on the new tank before it was fitted.
Tom309
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Tom309 »

Hi Paul,
Thank you, I now think that is the correct figure and I'm assuming that the heater is ok.

I put a patch up the expansion reservoir and tried running the denox system. The system would not allow this due to the denox pressure. Diagbox showed that the pressure was 7bar (should be between 4 & 6bar) even though the pump had not run! Using a dvm I found out that the pressure sensor is also faulty. Seems to give roughly the correct reading when cold, but goes to maximum when warmed. I should have suspected something when I saw some blackening on the connector to this sensor.

So I'm assuming that the parts in the tank are ok, and I need another pressure sensor. So I've ordered a second hand tank to use the pump/expansion vessel/pressure sensor. It's from a 2018 Vauxhall Crossland X! These have the same pump assembly as the 308 (looking at the pictures it is probably the same tank as a late 308), but at about a 1/3rd of the price. So hopefully will work. I will also (as a test only) try the tank pcb to see that is compatible or if it requires the engine management ecu coding. A job for tomorrow.

Thanks again.
Tom309
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Tom309 »

Update on the Crossland X adblue tank:
The Crossland X tank uses the same parts as the 308 except:
- the fill connections have been modified (to allow adblue filling by the diesel fuel flap - the same as latest 308), see green arrows in pictures
- the removable mounting leg, blue arrows.
- the pump control pcb
308&crossland1a.jpg
308&crossland2a.jpg
308&crossland3a.jpg
The pump control pcb:
- has a common mode choke fitted on the Canbus connections on the original 2015 pcb, but this has been removed and replaced by two zero ohm links on the 2018 version. In the picture below these are shown circled. The removal of this choke is probably PSA's attempt to make this connection more reliable as these usually help to suppress interference, but they can lead to other problems.
- I haven't found any other differences in the components or the tracking and have been reasonably thorough, even to checking the major components manufacturer's part numbers.
As the car's ecu# needs reprogramming when using the newer pcb, I think the pcb's processor must be reprogrammed as the removal of the common mode choke probably wouldn't need a reprogram. # Is this actually the Built-in System Interface (BSI)?
2015&2018pcb2.jpg
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The SCR system is mainly controlled by the engine ECU which also passes on info to the BSI as needed for other monitoring. This will be a 'secure' component so will likely need programming from the dealer's servers.
Tom309
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Tom309 »

To continue with my testing:
I repaired the old pcb (replaced the Mosfet in the H-bridge that drives the pump motor and put wire links across the two corroded tracks) and also replaced the pressure sensor and the leaky expansion tank by using the complete pump assembly from the 2018 Crossland X tank except for the pcb.
Tried this in the car and it still didn't work even during an extended road test.
Also tried the 2018 pcb, but came back (as expected) with the "No communication to the Denox system" fault.

I was unsure if I still had faults on the pcb, if hadn't properly commissioned (refill, bleeding, resetting) the tank, or if I was not using Diagbox correctly, so as Paul-R was not too far away I asked if I could have the pcb from his old faulty tank. He very kindly let me have the complete tank :-D

Note at the start of the process, I was unsure how the tank could be tested. So I'm not sure exactly when it was working or not, but here is what I did:
1. My tank wouldn't run even when driving the car
2. Inspected Paul's tank's pcb & wiring. Couldn't see anything wrong.
3. Tried Paul's pump assembly (pump and pcb) on my tank, Using Diagbox showed -40C tank temp! I thought it was a bad connection or thermal sensor not connected. Pulled it apart again and found nothing wrong.
4. Tried swapping my tank for Paul's. Still -40C.
5. As my pcb had shown the correct temperature, I tried my pcb with Paul's pump and my tank. Showed +19C.
6. Swapped the two pcbs. Now Paul's showed +20C, but the parameters on Diagbox still showed tank heating, so the car wouldn't allow the pump to run. Note I don't believe that tank heating is required much above -11C (freezing point of adblue).
7. Disconnected and reconnected Paul's pcb. Diagbox box showed that it was no longer in heating mode.
Note I had tried resetting the urea tank faults on Diagbox on the above faults but it hadn't changed temperatures or the heating requirement.
8. Tried the actuator tests again and the "check of the Denox flow" and it started the pump!! Note that the outlet was just connected to a bottle, so would be unable to pressurise.
9. Tried my repaired pcb with the 2018 pump again, it also worked on the check of the flow!

I have found that this test is best for testing the system. I also tried the other actuator tests. The control relay test does nothing, but doesn't fail. The heating tests sometimes pass, sometimes fail, sometimes it doesn't start. I tried combinations of Paul's pcb, tank and wiring and mine all with inconsistent results. I'm totally confused by that as the resistances of my tank, Paul's and the Grandland x are all the same.

10. My last combination was basically Paul's tank & pcb, so I tried a test drive. It worked.
11. The next day it didn't work on a test drive or start the pump on the flow test.
12. The day after that, I pulled it apart, but couldn't find anything wrong or with the parameters on Diagbox and it wouldn't run the pump with the flow test. I was talking to my next door neighbour and was telling him about it, saying that it felt like the problem seems to be one or more poor connections. So I said if I just tapped the pump assembly it would work and guess what, with the screwdriver handle I gently tapped it and it worked!
I put it back together, gave it a test run which worked fine. I was going to do some more testing when it stopped again, but it has now been working for just over a fortnight and over 600 miles.

Note that the original faults on my leaking pump were:
P20F6 Denox leak detection, P249E Depollution of denox - excess amount, P3052 Pressure of urea too low.
These were followed the next day by a host of other faults including P20E8 "low Denox pressure" and U029E "Fault in communication with the denox system - no communication" and the 700 mile countdown. Unfortunately I didn't record them all. I guess this is when the adblue completely submerged the pcb.

My conclusion at the moment is that Paul's tank wouldn't run because of a bad connection. My guess would be the relay contact, but the main wiring connector to the tank wasn't great either, or maybe a soldered joint? I'm waiting for it to fail again to track this down. Note that that cable on the tank had been replaced as it was fitted with one dated 2016. There was a recall for the cabling harness.
I think that the problem of the -40C was the corruption of some parameters when connecting the pcb. I'm still not sure if the heaters will work ok as it's not cold enough to test these properly.
I can't explain why my repaired pcb with the 2018 pump wouldn't originally run on the car (unless it was in the commissioning) as it did work on the actuator test (step 9)

I have stopped testing as the car is still working and I've got to get on with some other jobs, but more to follow.

Thanks again to Paul-R
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by GeeGee »

Paul-R wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 17:18
Update:

...... They then told me that Peugeot had issued "guided support" for vehicles with the pump problem and that they had extended the warranty on the tank from the general 3 years to 5 years/90,000 miles.

In these cases Peugeot would pay for the cost of the tank and the customers would pay the labour cost, which would be £70.00 (inc VAT), which includes coding the new tank to the ECU. Our 308 was 5 years old in April but they suggested that, as that was during lockdown, I should contact customer service and see if they treat us as a goodwill case. Well, the short answer is that they won't because of the car's mileage of 62,000 in 2019.
My daughter is having major problems with the same things. I am a little confused with the above:- a 2015 car having done 62,000 miles in 2019. To me that makes it both less than the 90,000 mile and less than the 5 year components of the warrantee? Also, I realise I am late in coming to this post but does anyone know if that dubious warrantee has been rescinded?
Thank you.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I think you'll find it's down to discretion if out of 60k miles / 3 years warranty - unless you have extended warranty.

They are more likely to be favourable though if you have your car serviced with the dealerships - they do seem to take that into consideration. That's has happened to me on several occasions for different issues and they have come to an arrangement as I was a good repeat customer.
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Paul-R
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Paul-R »

That's basically it. I was hoping that they would make a discretionary payment outside the 5 year limit using the "but I couldn't bring it in then because of Covid-19" argument. Unfortunately they turned me down because of the mileage figure which they deemed high even though it would have been ok within the 5 years.

AFAIK the guided claim procedure is still active.
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Queensquirrel »

Can someone just explain to me how a frequent fault like this is not a recall?

£1200 to replace entire tank its going in tomorrow. I am gutted.
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GiveMeABreak
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Hi - sorry to hear that.

It's likely because it's not a) a potential safety risk / hazard which most recalls are and b) maybe there are not as many problems with the tanks as we think - in that only get to hear about them from drivers who have actual issues with them.

It's still relatively new technology and they have made improvements to the tanks over the years as I mentioned, but some early tanks suffered as a result of corrosion on some metallic components or with pump issues. As the components can't be replaced due to them being sealed tanks, the whole tanks needs replacing.

As your car is likely at, or over the 5 year period, they may put this down to 'wear & tear' like any other pump or component that fails. From their point of view, you could ask at which point they draw a line for claims against this sort of thing, or people could be making claims for anything else that fails on the car. Plenty of us feel the same way about the steering racks on the C5 (of which my car and was on the third rack)!, along with many others here. We felt this was a particular fault that Citroen should address, but no - it was never acknowledged as a fault., despite this being an unprecedented issue.

Peugeot 308 (T9) vehicles that are classified as Euro 6.1 standard show up as having the most revised tank part numbers, which would suggest that later Euro 6.2 and 6.3 308 vehicles have revised tanks fitted at the factory, as there are no replacement tank numbers shown for these.

Personally, my current C3 Aircross is Euro 6.2, but does have a replacement SCR tank listed already, so that tells me there is a potential issue with mine as I can't be sure whether it has the earlier or later tank. I will just make sure I keep the Adblue topped up regularly, to help reduce the volume of air in the tank and the opportunity for any potential rust issues - unless there is another type of possible fault we are not aware of. I'll also be taking out Citroen extended warranty when my 3 years warranty expires just in case as this will still be cheaper to maintain cover for 5 additional years than the price of a new tank, should they not cover it.
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Huskyxantia
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Re: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 308 Adblue problem

Post by Huskyxantia »

Sorry if this strays of subject BUT....


A pal of mine works for volvo, he has seen many vechiles come in with crystalization in fuel lines injectors the tank due to adblue , he even told me about a brand new bendy bus gatwick aquiered a while back only for someone there adding £400 worth of this stuff by shear mistake to only reck an engine that cost over 14k for him to go recover and refit the new lump. Id never use it.,