The curse has struck again
Moderator: RichardW
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: The curse has struck again
I'll take a look tomorrow at possible optimal O-ring sizes for the LP and HP pipes, now all the dimensions are there. Bit late here now for such brainwork!
Chris
- Sloppysod
- Donor 2024
- Posts: 965
- Joined: 23 May 2015, 23:35
- Location: North Wales
- My Cars: Citroens
1 x GS, 1 x GSX (Banger raced), 1 x GSA,
2 x CX Famililles, 1 x CX GTI,
BX, XM, Xantia, C5 Mk1,
C4 (Coupe), C4 (B7),
C5 (X7)
Renault
R4 Van
Fuego
Clio Campas - x 212
Re: The curse has struck again
Hi Kenny, two points.
1 - Try these people for seals if there are still working - Simply Bearings - see photo.
2 - Also I bought my rack from this Guy "http://www.kellybraysteering.co.uk/", he knows about racks, he had one left that he had no intention of selling becuase he couldn't give them a long garruntee, mine has been dry since fitted in December 2017.
1 - Try these people for seals if there are still working - Simply Bearings - see photo.
2 - Also I bought my rack from this Guy "http://www.kellybraysteering.co.uk/", he knows about racks, he had one left that he had no intention of selling becuase he couldn't give them a long garruntee, mine has been dry since fitted in December 2017.
Stu
"Some cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go"Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Major interventions
C5 Steering rack @ 58,000 mi
4 discs & Pads @ 63,585 mi
2 (AM6) oil exchanges @ 58,876 & 72,378 mi
"Some cause happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go"Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Major interventions
C5 Steering rack @ 58,000 mi
4 discs & Pads @ 63,585 mi
2 (AM6) oil exchanges @ 58,876 & 72,378 mi
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Thanks Stu,
All ready ordered and on route from them. Thanks for the tip re rack.
Kenny
All ready ordered and on route from them. Thanks for the tip re rack.
Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: The curse has struck again
Hi Kenny,
Sorry for lateness, but just had a chance to look at optimal O-ring sizes.
There are many examples of where Citroen/PSA are somewhat mean on O-ring dimensions, and achieve a leakproof seal (in the factory) with a brand new O-ring, which is minimally compressed. The compression sometimes only operates in one direction, and leaves the ring not actually decently filling the groove.
PSA are quite fond of 2mm thickness O-rings, and use them all over the place. One example of these being a tad leaky is on the screw-in plug on spheres, where the ring is quite a loose fit in the plug groove, and hardly compresses at all.
Have found that it is only necessary to go very slightly up in O-ring thickness to achieve decent compression, and a much better seal. The groove is filled better, and the ring is less prone simply to go 'flat'. A small fraction of a mm increase is all that is needed.
Using Robin's dimensions above for LP and HP pipe and bore, I calculate as follows:
HP pipe, 10.95mm ø
Groove height = 2.78mm
Groove ø = 8.30mm
Available slot for O-ring (groove height × groove depth+bore_clearance) = 3.9754mm²
An O-ring of 2.25mm thickness would fill this space.
Choice from Polymax* range would be 8mm I.D. × 2.2mm thickness
LP pipe, 11.95mm ø
Groove height = 2.45mm
Groove ø = 9.45mm
Available slot for O-ring (groove height × groove depth+bore_clearance) = 3.32mm²
An O-ring of 2.05mm thickness would fill this space.
Choice from Polymax* range would be 9.02mm I.D. × 2.2mm thickness
* https://www.polymax.co.uk/o-rings/rubber-viton-oring/
Viton/FKM quality (mineral oil proof), ShA 70/75.
Used extensively for Citroen hydraulic repairs.
Have used Simply Bearings as well; helpful for very small quantities.
More than happy for my maths to be checked!
As before, the increase in O-ring thickness is only small (0.2mm above the standard 2mm), but creates a much snugger fit. Important to lubricate the ring (eg silicone grease or Vaseline) when fitting, to avoid scuffing.
Sorry for lateness, but just had a chance to look at optimal O-ring sizes.
There are many examples of where Citroen/PSA are somewhat mean on O-ring dimensions, and achieve a leakproof seal (in the factory) with a brand new O-ring, which is minimally compressed. The compression sometimes only operates in one direction, and leaves the ring not actually decently filling the groove.
PSA are quite fond of 2mm thickness O-rings, and use them all over the place. One example of these being a tad leaky is on the screw-in plug on spheres, where the ring is quite a loose fit in the plug groove, and hardly compresses at all.
Have found that it is only necessary to go very slightly up in O-ring thickness to achieve decent compression, and a much better seal. The groove is filled better, and the ring is less prone simply to go 'flat'. A small fraction of a mm increase is all that is needed.
Using Robin's dimensions above for LP and HP pipe and bore, I calculate as follows:
HP pipe, 10.95mm ø
Groove height = 2.78mm
Groove ø = 8.30mm
Available slot for O-ring (groove height × groove depth+bore_clearance) = 3.9754mm²
An O-ring of 2.25mm thickness would fill this space.
Choice from Polymax* range would be 8mm I.D. × 2.2mm thickness
LP pipe, 11.95mm ø
Groove height = 2.45mm
Groove ø = 9.45mm
Available slot for O-ring (groove height × groove depth+bore_clearance) = 3.32mm²
An O-ring of 2.05mm thickness would fill this space.
Choice from Polymax* range would be 9.02mm I.D. × 2.2mm thickness
* https://www.polymax.co.uk/o-rings/rubber-viton-oring/
Viton/FKM quality (mineral oil proof), ShA 70/75.
Used extensively for Citroen hydraulic repairs.
Have used Simply Bearings as well; helpful for very small quantities.
More than happy for my maths to be checked!
As before, the increase in O-ring thickness is only small (0.2mm above the standard 2mm), but creates a much snugger fit. Important to lubricate the ring (eg silicone grease or Vaseline) when fitting, to avoid scuffing.
Chris
- ksanturion10
- Posts: 228
- Joined: 14 Oct 2018, 21:59
- Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
- My Cars: Xantia Estate X1 1.8i, 16v
- x 19
Re: The curse has struck again
Think to start selling bearings and o-rings, mech engineering seems to be a dead cause around here
By the way, the dimensions are not the optimal ones, but probably will do. Just fyi, the lower limit for standard FKM (Viton) o-rings is at -15 deg C, so it should be the special compound for -35 deg C, for which I don't know the exact name, but if I was you, would probably buy what is out there for sale
Only himself the stupid makes wrong, many are being confused by the clever
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Thanks Chris,
I've been thinking the same, but I have an alternative idea worth somebody testing out who has the necessary equipment to test.
Firstly, the following question will decide if my idea is worth doing or considering.
Are the top half of the pinion housings the same dimensions between later mk 2 Xantias and C5 x7 ?
If so can they be swapped and the screw type fitting be used to secure the pipes of the C5, obviously with some modifications.
Would this change affect the operation of the power steering ie narrower pipe ID causing increased pressure thus blow top seal on the pinion.
Just an idea thrown out for comments and thoughts
Kenny
I've been thinking the same, but I have an alternative idea worth somebody testing out who has the necessary equipment to test.
Firstly, the following question will decide if my idea is worth doing or considering.
Are the top half of the pinion housings the same dimensions between later mk 2 Xantias and C5 x7 ?
If so can they be swapped and the screw type fitting be used to secure the pipes of the C5, obviously with some modifications.
Would this change affect the operation of the power steering ie narrower pipe ID causing increased pressure thus blow top seal on the pinion.
Just an idea thrown out for comments and thoughts
Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Well started to remove the necessary bolts etc to drop sub-frame to remove rack.
An observation the rack appeared to be dry which suggests to be the leak is from a low pressure area, will find out how my mod has been performing.
Tempted to had some additional seals on the tube below the o ring grove to fill the gap, ie small seals stretched over the pipe.
Will keep everybody updated.
Kenny
An observation the rack appeared to be dry which suggests to be the leak is from a low pressure area, will find out how my mod has been performing.
Tempted to had some additional seals on the tube below the o ring grove to fill the gap, ie small seals stretched over the pipe.
Will keep everybody updated.
Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: The curse has struck again
Additional seals/rings below the main ones would have to be extremely thin, as the gap (on both pipes) is only 0.105mm, from the figures above.
An additional O-ring in a proper groove might make sense, though, but not easy to produce a decently smooth groove.
An additional O-ring in a proper groove might make sense, though, but not easy to produce a decently smooth groove.
Chris
- Paul-R
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 6916
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- Location: Wirral, NW England; Vaucluse 84, France
- Lexia Available: Yes
- My Cars: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 Peugeot 308 Active SW
2013 2.0 HDi 163 C5 Exclusive Tourer
2003 2.0 HDi 110 C5 Exclusive Estate (Gone)
2001 2.0 HDi 90 Xsara Estate (Gone) - x 1369
Re: The curse has struck again
Basically what I suggested in another thread about this problem.white exec wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 22:17An additional O-ring in a proper groove might make sense, though, but not easy to produce a decently smooth groove.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
- white exec
- Moderating Team
- Posts: 7445
- Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
- Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
- My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: The curse has struck again
It could be easily done on a lathe, if it were possible to get the pipe(s) accurately mounted in the chuck.
Chris
- Paul-R
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 6916
- Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
- Location: Wirral, NW England; Vaucluse 84, France
- Lexia Available: Yes
- My Cars: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 Peugeot 308 Active SW
2013 2.0 HDi 163 C5 Exclusive Tourer
2003 2.0 HDi 110 C5 Exclusive Estate (Gone)
2001 2.0 HDi 90 Xsara Estate (Gone) - x 1369
Re: The curse has struck again
Found it!Paul-R wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 22:22Basically what I suggested in another thread about this problem.white exec wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 22:17An additional O-ring in a proper groove might make sense, though, but not easy to produce a decently smooth groove.
viewtopic.php?p=641788#p641788
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Well rack off and it appears it is not leaking from the top pinion seal.
The pipes seemed well sealed and needed a little assistance to come off.
But there was a mixture of water and oil in both track rod boots a lovely off green colour ( definitely NOT LHM fluid) as I know I filled the rack with orange LDS fluid.
Could the seals at both ends showing signs of wear due to the ingress of water. I changed the boots just before the MOT in Jan 2020.
Thoughts please everyone.
Kenny
The pipes seemed well sealed and needed a little assistance to come off.
But there was a mixture of water and oil in both track rod boots a lovely off green colour ( definitely NOT LHM fluid) as I know I filled the rack with orange LDS fluid.
Could the seals at both ends showing signs of wear due to the ingress of water. I changed the boots just before the MOT in Jan 2020.
Thoughts please everyone.
Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Well collected another rack today from Glasgow Power steering, speaking to one of the mechanics he said they strip down the rack fit all new seals and have the pinion shaft turned down until clean then fit an oversized seal to finish the job.
I have made slightly different mod by removing the small metal bracket attached to the top of the pinion to create a good securing location for a ball joint dust cap.
Here are some photos,
I have made slightly different mod by removing the small metal bracket attached to the top of the pinion to create a good securing location for a ball joint dust cap.
Here are some photos,
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
- KennyW
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2499
- Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
- Location: Letham, Fife
- My Cars: Current Citroen's
C5 x7 2010
SWMBO C3 2012
Previous Citroen's
Xantia 2.0 90hp estate
Xantia 1.9 TD estate - x 132
Re: The curse has struck again
Sorry,the photos are the wrong order and I need to find an original.
Thanks to Chris for borrowing your photos that's the bit I cut off
Thanks to Chris for borrowing your photos that's the bit I cut off
- Attachments
-
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, the newbie
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.