Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

I think Dave has been reading the posts on the FCF, Na-ion batteries given a decent airing on the thread a month ago.
Good to see him giving Sodium Ion batteries the just have a think treatment in today's video. Its a good thing that there is so much R&D going on, but also the most likely suspects to get the advances in R&D out of the lab and up to scale production are the likes of CATL. Their assessment of the next developments in battery tech making it to large scale use in EV's, are sodium-ion and solid state batteries.

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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Bit of a mouthful but this comes from a Mercedes press release on the establishment of a battery recycling plant at Kuppenheim to be operational from 2023. They aim for 96% recycling of battery elements.

This is their approach, and it seems right, but its not mandatory. The switched on manufacturers see the benefit of securing value from batteries which they fit into their cars at first manufacture and taking responsibility for their efficient recycling.

Once they have their customers they want to keep them. Over at VW they want to make sure that they retain their interest in the batteries in their vehicles, and have mentioned the revival of battery leasing as a way of ensuring that at the end-of-life as a traction battery, VW get the batteries back.
https://group-media.mercedes-benz.com/m ... d=52769309
Holistic approach to battery value creation

Mercedes-Benz is taking a holistic approach to the circular economy of battery systems, looking at three core issues: circular design, value retention and closing the loop.

During the development of a vehicle, the company creates a concept for each vehicle model in which all components and materials are analyzed for their suitability in the context of a circular economy. As a result, all Mercedes-Benz passenger car models are 85 percent materially recyclable and 95 percent reusable in accordance with ISO 22 628.

Material recycling of the raw materials used, such as lithium, nickel, cobalt, is an integral part of this approach, and also begins with the design of the components. This approach covers the entire supply chain from mining to recycling. A high level of attention is also paid to the observance of human rights in the working conditions of employees.

Mercedes-Benz offers reconditioned batteries as replacement parts for all electric vehicles, in order to comply with the idea of a closed economic cycle and to conserve resources. In addition, Mercedes-Benz AG has established a successful business model with stationary large-scale energy storages through its subsidiary Mercedes-Benz Energy. Batteries that can no longer be used in vehicles can continue to be used in a 2nd-life storage system. For example, in Factory 56 in Sindelfingen, where a stationary energy storage with an overall capacity of 1,400 kWh is connected to the DC network and acts as a buffer for excess solar power from the photovoltaic system.

Material recycling is at the end of a battery's life, and is the key to closing the loop of recyclable materials.
Sounds great Mercedes "Mercedes-Benz offers reconditioned batteries as replacement parts for all electric vehicles"

Mercedes deal mostly with the well-heeled of course, but should battery replacement time come, even for the well-heeled, some kind of replacement battery leasing scheme will be necessary to offset a large one off cost at that time.

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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Another manufacturer looking to secure second-use value from their EV batteries.

Jaguar to use I-Pace batteries in 2nd Life project

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Not sure if this is in the right thread, but What Car recently did a cold weather real world test to see how ten EVs performed.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/whi ... d=msedgntp
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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My classic Leaf is small battery 24kWh, low range compared to the ones on test, but still gets 4.3 miles per kWh in the winter. It does have a heat pump fortunately, which is very much an improvement on the 1st Gen truly pioneering Leafs. I am very miserly with the in car heating I will admit, and I do the other things which of necessity maximise range. The faster you drive is the biggest killer of range. Air resistance very much takes over at speed, and the laws of physics equally apply to the ICE car less miles/gall at 70 than 50, EV less miles per kWh at 70 than 50.

Renault have a nice little calculator with sliders for their Renault Zoe altering a few key factors like speed/outside temp/heater on/off, aircon on/off, eco mode on/off etc. Pretty obvious really less miles per kWh, less miles overall with speed up, heater on, aircon on, eco mode off, colder outside temps.

https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehi ... ttery.html

Range is anxiety-ed unnecessarily. Most car users do less than 6,000 miles a year, 115 miles per week. That's one overnight charge per week at home, or at an EV charging hub. Indeed many of the headline EV PCP or leasing deals for new cars are based on 5000 miles/year.

I've done over 20,000 miles in the Leaf now, live a considerable distance from civilisation and have never run out of electricity once. :-D Yes the occasional inconvenience with chargers out of action and waiting our turn but so far so good. :-D To paraphrase Frank Sinatra " If you can make a low range EV work here, you can make an low range EV work anywhere"

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 19 Mar 2022, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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NewcastleFalcon wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 10:58 To paraphrase Frank Sinatra " If you can make a low range EV work here, you can make an low range EV work anywhere"
Regards Neil
While not wanting to argue with Frank or even rewrite his song I have to take issue with that assertion!!
When I am fully fit I have four places I visit regularly:

Elstree - 3 times a week - 58 mile round trip

Mancave - 1 or 2 times a week - 70 mile round trip

My storage facility - 4-7 times a week 5 mile round trip

Meet mates halfway - once a week - 70 mile round trip

+ any incidental mileage for evenings out or shopping etc.

That works out at 350ish miles per week as is evidenced by the monthly mileage thread.

Fairly often I go to Elstree in the morning, pop home for lunch and then the man cave in the afternoon so 128 miles without a break longer than 20 minutes. I simply could not do that with a low range EV so hence my issue with that statement!! :-D
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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mickthemaverick wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 11:23
NewcastleFalcon wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 10:58 To paraphrase Frank Sinatra " If you can make a low range EV work here, you can make an low range EV work anywhere"
Regards Neil
That works out at 350ish miles per week as is evidenced by the monthly mileage thread.
Not meant to be a 100% statement of applicability or accuracy to all Mick... it was tongue in cheek. :!:

You are not the average Mick...you do a lot of miles. 18,000 plus a year is way over the average which last time I looked sat about 7,500. Other individuals may present cases like yourself, but the majority do less than 7500 a year, heading downwards if the price of fossil really does have a reducing demand/giving up cars altogether effect.

Last relevant full year (2018)
2018 Department for Transport National Travel Survey.
2018 Department for Transport National Travel Survey.
Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 17 Mar 2022, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

Post by mickthemaverick »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 11:48
mickthemaverick wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 11:23
NewcastleFalcon wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 10:58 To paraphrase Frank Sinatra " If you can make a low range EV work here, you can make an low range EV work anywhere"
Regards Neil
That works out at 350ish miles per week as is evidenced by the monthly mileage thread.
Not meant to be a 100% statement of applicability or accuracy to all Mick... it was tongue in cheek. :!:

You are not the average Mick...you do a lot of miles. 18,000 plus a year is way over the average which last time I looked sat about 7,500. Other individuals may present cases like yourself, but the majority do less than 7500 a year, heading downwards if the price of fossil really does have a reducing demand/giving up cars altogether effect.

Last relevant full year (2018)
Image

Regards Neil



REgards Neil
Totally agree with that Neil, perhaps the addition of the word "almost" before "anywhere" would satisfy us both, except Frank of course because it wouldn't fit in the rhythm of the song!! :-D
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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There is considerable activity across automakers, and other players including this Mining Company and Waste and recycling giant Suez to prepare for the obvious imperative to reuse, recycle, and recover elements from batteries.

Eramet & Suez to build battery recycling plant in France

Meanwhile just in case anyone thinks recycling is going to be optional, a bit of target setting and regulation is proposed by the EU.

New rules on batteries: MEPs want more environmental and social ambition

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

Post by bobins »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 10:58
Range is anxiety-ed unnecessarily. Most car users do less than 6,000 miles a year, 115 miles per week. That's one overnight charge per week at home, or at an EV charging hub. Indeed many of the headline EV PCP or leasing deals for new cars are based on 5000 miles/year.

Regards Neil

I'm afraid the 6000 miles p/a converting to 115 miles p/w isn't really a valid statistic in this argument :( Those 6000 miles p/a could be made up of anything from lots and lots of trips into town, to just a handful of very long trips of 500 miles each. Take my C5 as an example - I've only done 2-3000 miles p/a in it recently which would equate to around 50 miles p/w, when in reality I've only used it a few dozen times and the huge overwhelming number of those trips have been either 100 miles one way or well over 200 mile return trips. The get a valid statistic on how many miles people actually travel in their cars you'd need to look at the Median or preferably Modal average.
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Again individuals vary. There will be some stats around about average journey length by car by foot by rail/bus etc whatever in the sample taken in the National Transport survey. Haven't thumbed through the lot.

Have a thumb through pick out what you can but it is a survey, its not everyone's individual vehicle miles from the MOT data or whatever. Just a general guide. I would think your journey pattern is unlikely to be typical. My journey pattern living in a rural area is definitely more annual miles/ more miles per journey, and will be different to the typical pattern of someone living in the Tyneside Area, which although there will be exceptions in general I would expect to be shorter journeys lower annual miles.

If there is other data available give it a reference

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... urvey-2018

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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Teesside on the shortlist for vast Jaguar Land Rover battery plant
TEESSIDE is believed to be on the shortlist for one of Britain's biggest industrial developments - bringing thousands of jobs and decades of work for local firms.

Jaguar Land Rover has been looking for a partner to make batteries for its Range Rover and Land Rover electric models and the FT confirmed today that JLR is talking to Envision, which is already building a £450m gigaplant for Nissan at Sunderland.
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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I have every confidence that with all the research and development now expanding into this area, that all the supposed "problems" of current battery chemistry will be solved, from expensive raw materials, to energy density, to longevity, to recycling. There is worldwide competition too from many players, none bigger than CATL, but if Toyota start getting serious then watch out the rest. They have been a celebrated laggard so far and it would be surprising if they are indeed ahead of the likes of CATL in getting genuine solid state batteries into commercial production at scale.

Meanwhile NA-ion may overtake them all.

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