Electric Vehicles:Batteries and recycling

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Stickyfinger
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by white exec »

Toyota have so much to lose with the shut-down on mass ICE production, and seem so far have had head-in-sand over 100% electric vehicles, preferring instead to push petrol-hybrid, and hard. Mitsubishi similarly.
They have finally realised that (best-available) battery production is crucial to them, otherwise their vehicles will be completely unsaleable. They already have Panasonic as a partner - they make the small battery units for their hybrids - and have vast funds available to go forward.
My guess is that battery architecture - and the physical shape/size of cells, too - will get progressively rethought.
UK likely to have locked itself out of all this by the recent exit decision. Why would any manufacturer intending to sell in Europe choose to locate and manufacture outside it?

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Bit of reading, but not too much, from the Battery University.

Gives a bit of information on "Future Batteries". Plenty of research going on. Li-ion no doubt will be overtaken with cheaper more energy dense, greater number of cycles....but.....

what we currently have......works, and has about 10 years now in cars which have travelled well over 100,000 miles. The occasional "fire" incident, but in general the current tech has an excellent safety/reliability/ and even longevity record. Some of the future developments being researched have immense potential, but have the safety/reliability/longevity hurdles to overcome before they become commercially viable in motor vehicles.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... _batteries

Covers Lithium-Air, Lithium-metal, Solid State Lithium, Lithium-Sulphur, Sodium-Ion, Lithium Iron Manganese Phosphate
REgards Neil

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The UK still has a decent sized domestic new car market, in 6th place for individual countries behind China, USA, Japan, Germany and India. Larger than South Korea which is home to global battery makers LG Chem, Samsung, and SK Innovation.

China's Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. (CATL), has emerged as the world leader in electric vehicle (EV) batteries by overtaking Japan’s Panasonic.,

CATL's Aggressive Investment Makes S. Korean Battery Firms Feel Nervous

As the only EV battery maker located in the UK in Sunderland is owned by the Chinese, unless some initiative comes out from totally left field, I would suggest that the any possible UK Battery Gigafactory to service the transition of UK automobile manufacturing from ICE to electric, is going to be a partnership with the one of the South Korean firms or the Chinese.

It is unlikely that PSA in the shape of its Vauxhall enterprise, or BMW in its Mini enterprise, will be looking for a battery manufacturing facility in the UK following their investments elsewhere.

Time for Hyundai/KIA or MG to take an EV manufacturing foothold in the UK, bring with them battery partners, and who knows it may even wake up Nissan.

er....and gloves off with State Aid.....the alternative is a major wind down and exiting from the playing field by the current players with unambitious/pessimistic plans for manufacturing in the UK.

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Are the USA's General Motors the last place to go to get "Battery News"? Probably but they are joining in on the Battery Gigafactory bandwagon, in a partnership with.............................LG Chem.

GM announces its own battery gigafactory with LG Chem, 30 GWh of capacity eventually below $100/kWh

Many of the traditional automakers are playing catch up with TESLA, to securing a reliable battery supply of appropriate volume. Jaguar I-Pace production has stalled due to a shortage of batteries from LG Chem, following on from production target cuts from Audi on their e-tron and Mercedes on their EQC due to supply issues from LG Chem.

https://electrek.co/2020/02/10/jaguar-p ... shortages/

In the battery world the usual players crop up time and time again. If the UK wants to join in on the battery Gigafactory bandwagon it has two basic requirements to satisfy.

1. It needs a motor manufacturer (yes or 2 or 3 or 4) in the UK to initiate such a development and
2. It needs an established battery manufacturer to partner the development(s)

Now is that going to come from our current crop, or is it time to look east?

REgards Neil

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Well I didnt know we had one of these
https://www.ukbic.co.uk/
We will deliver on the UK’s industrial strategy “future of mobility” grand challenge. We will develop the processes to transition the UK to become a world leader in manufacture of batteries for vehicle electrification.
Bold talk!

Not quite opened yet

Practical completion achieved at new UK Battery Industrialisation Centre

REgards Neil

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Here's my recipe for a UK EV Battery industry, on a decent scale
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 09:32
1. It needs a motor manufacturer (yes or 2 or 3 or 4) in the UK to initiate such a development and
2. It needs an established battery manufacturer to partner the development(s)
Now is that going to come from our current crop, or is it time to look east?
This is an informative article from WIRED, discussing the matter of a UK battery gigafactory. It is indeed a competitive world, and a time when small investments are likely to be not enough. Our current crop of manufacturers in the UK are unlikely to take the risk and raise the capital to fund such a development, not least because their owners are backing their own schemes elsewhere.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/gigafac ... government
New information for me was this little paragraph
"We've got the biggest electrolyte facility in Europe up in the northwest," says Constance. "We've got battery grade nickel refinery in Wales. In Humberside, they have the biggest producer of the carbon material that goes into anodes. We've got core elements of the supply chain already in place."
Regards Neil

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white exec
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by white exec »

There is something odd about that release about UKBIC. Not a word from govt (Would they miss such an opportunity?) nor anything in the press or media. Doesn't sit right. Vapourware?

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by GiveMeABreak »

myglaren wrote:
08 Feb 2020, 18:57
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
08 Feb 2020, 18:53
Hold the front page Toyota are doing something....it will work on prismatic batteries they intend to sell to other automakers.
Is that a development of healing crystals?
Love it :rofl2:

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

white exec wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 19:32
There is something odd about that release about UKBIC. Not a word from govt (Would they miss such an opportunity?) nor anything in the press or media. Doesn't sit right. Vapourware?
No dont think it could be Vapourware Chris, the Coventry Telegraph would have had to be part of the conspiracy, and they would have had to have faked this rather large construction site. All we need is google street view/satellite to confirm!
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Bit of a speculative article, arising out of this

Panasonic in a jam as Tesla taps new battery supplies in China

China has the world largest ev battery maker, CATL, and the worlds biggest EV Company TESLA have built a gigafactory in Shanghai. It would be unusual if there was not a tie up between the 2.

Whether this bit of speculation proves reliable or not, my guess is CATL will be supplying batteries to TESLA in China, very much at the expense of rivals Panasonic.

How CATL Lithium-Iron-Phosphate Batteries Could Be Leading To 100 kWh Tesla Model 3

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
19 Feb 2020, 12:33
Whether this bit of speculation proves reliable or not, my guess is CATL will be supplying batteries to TESLA in China, very much at the expense of rivals Panasonic.
Regards Neil
Wait a few days, and that's exactly what is happening according to Cleantechnica.

CATL-Built Tesla Model 3 Battery Pack Will Use Prismatic Cells

Regards Neil

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Who are the usual Suspects in EV Battery Supply?

CATL, Panasonic, and LG Chem, and all with huge current massive demand, and heading for an exponential curve of demand.

So currently if some legacy automakers are to be believed, they are having to stall their production due to a problems in supply of batteries, and hence problems in supply of finished vehicles. KIA are a case in point...prioritising Europe due to the emissions regulations and fines, at the expense of supplying the US market.

Electrek Interview: Kia’s EV plans (in the USA) wait on battery supplies for at least another year

The comments add a healthy touch of scepticism, to the whole battery supply excuse, and point to a reluctance of the legacy automakers to ramp up production targets for new EV's, and contract with the battery suppliers accordingly. Surely if you have a production target for EV's, you will have the components required to achive that target ordered /tied up in contracts and if suppliers don't come with the goods hit them with the penalties written into the contract.

Its not as if the battery is not an obvious key component of manufacturing an electric vehicle and if your production target is 50,000 vehicles in a year presumably you have an enforcable contract with a battery supplier to produce that volume of batteries, and when they have to be delivered.
Lars Pallesen • 11 hours ago • edited
There's something fishy about all these legacy car makers excusing their paltry EV production with lack of battery supplies. Sure, I believe they don't have the batteries, but if you have to stop production after only 7-8,000 EVs it begs the question; how many batteries had they originally ordered from LG Chem? How many EVs had they planned to make? I mean, either we're looking at a massive breach of contract from LG Chem and other battery suppliers (with several car manufacturers!) or these car makers are simply blaming the battery manufacturers for the disappointing number of EVs they're making.
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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by white exec »

And maybe they would prefer not to produce too many EVs immediately, this maintaining a high price for the ones they are selling. We all know that high-volume affordable car production can be less profitable than smaller numbers of expensive kit...

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Re: Electric Vehicles:Batteries

Post by bobins »

The reason the car manufacturers are stalling production is because they are in the business of making money, not saving the planet.