Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

The grid is undoubtedly heading in a greener direction, and development of grid scale battery storage goes hand in hand with the development of wind and solar to manage/solve the fluctuation in generation. Today on the graph the National grid was using gas to manage demand for our street lights, kettles lights and televisions and immersion heaters, and a tiny amount for our electric cars.

SMMT reckon there were 40 million vehicles on the roads of Britain (2020) of which there were only 144,335 plug-in hybrids and 92,913 battery electric vehicles potentially consuming electricity from the grid.

By 2025 there will be more EV's in mass production, and it may well be that round about then the tipping point will have arrived when more new electric cars are bought than ICE cars in the UK. It will take many many years as gibbo pointed out recently, before the proportion Electric Vehicles overtakes the proportion of ICE. After all the start point for the UK fleet was 99.5% ICE/ 0.5% BEV & PHEV in 2020. Very long way to go.

Right now with the make up of the grid as it is, a million EV's overnight is going to burn a lot of natural gas.
I think the Grid capacity and the adoption of full 100% BEV's in the country will go hand in hand at pretty much the same sort of pace. Its a pace which shouldn't frighten anyone, to slow for me with unambitious production targets from the legacy automakers, undersupply, and deliberate ICE price differentials mean that current prices are too high.

Overall I also anticipate the total number of vehicles in the UK Fleet declining considerably from the 40 million we are starting out with now over the next 10 years. If it doesn't it should. Most cars sit around underutilised depreciating and idle for (make up a figure Neil and be generous).. 90% of every 24 hours, every so often toddling off for an average journey of 8 Miles and then parking up. A very different landscape of personal transport may well be on the way, less ownership, more on-demand use of a vehicle sharing services, maybe even full autonomous cars.

Regards Neil

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

More Battery Swap.....they have included a Leaf in the pic too
Moving pictures


Regards Neil

thorter
Posts: 124
Joined: 22 Feb 2005, 03:07
x 5

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by thorter »

Unfortunately, there is much wishful thinking in official circles about renewable energy. Achieving so far about 30% renewable electricity is the easy bit. It is much more difficult to understand what happens next. Simply driving coal and gas generation out of business, as things are currently structured, appears very foolhardy, they are the means to keep the grid going. Storage is proposed for this, but how will it work?

For example, large battery storage for wind surpluses sounds simple. Our daily electricity use is about 600 or 700 gigawatt hours. Increase supplies for electric heating to replace gas, factor in electric vehicles (including commercials) and 2 terawatt hours daily generation looks about what we will need. If wind power becomes the dominant generation method, plan for 5 days storage (though 10 to 20 may be necessary), and thus plan for 10 terawatt hours (10 million megawatt hours).

Using the circa 100 megawatt hour Musk large scale battery units, that needs 100,000, and if they have a life of 10 years we need 10,000 per year in perpetuity. That is more than 25 a day to manufacture and install, just for the UK.

Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11646
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1363

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I recall watching an episode on the BBC 'Click' program where a company had set up a load of 'railway sidings' on a slope. They also had a lot of heavy 'trains' that were electrically driven. During periods of low demand these 'trains' were driven up the slope. When there was a heavy demand the 'trains' then coasted back down the slope, and their motors then generated power. This was, in effect, a power storage system that used gravity.

User avatar
bobins
Donor 2021
Posts: 4059
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 1241

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by bobins »

^^^^^^^

That sounds a bit like the Norway iron ore trains:

"From Riksgränsen on the national border to the Port of Narvik, the trains use only a fifth of the power they regenerate. The regenerated energy is sufficient to power the empty trains back up to the national border."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ore_Line

Hell Razor5543
Donor 2021
Posts: 11646
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 1363

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I know the trains you mean, but this system was specifically designed as a power storage system, using gravity as the main force. There could be several 'trains' in the sidings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c7fsr

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

thorter wrote:
03 Mar 2021, 22:07
Unfortunately, there is much wishful thinking in official circles about renewable energy. Achieving so far about 30% renewable electricity is the easy bit. It is much more difficult to understand what happens next.
I will copy your comments over to the Energy Matters Global and Domestic thread Thorter as they are very relevant to that thread as well. Can't say I have the answers to your valid concerns, but do watch with interest the changes that are undoubtedly happening in the energy sector.

Regards Neil

thorter
Posts: 124
Joined: 22 Feb 2005, 03:07
x 5

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by thorter »

Various gravity methods have been suggested, including cutting round solid rock to make a huge weight that would then be hung on cables to rise and fall. Unfortunately, the stored energy is always trivial in relation to what’s required. Just think of replacing it with the same mass of water, and the same vertical head, in a hydro scheme. It would be tiny. As it is, it is disappointing how little energy hydro can store relative to what would be needed. For example Dinorwig, our largest pumped storage facility is about 9 gigawatt hours, so hundreds more would be necessary to smooth out wind generation.

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5218
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1065

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Gibbo2286 »

What's noticeable on the battery swap videos is how clean everything is, I wonder how good it would work in real life when you need a battery change after 50 miles on a motorway or farm track road on a wet day.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

I can see how the Nio battery swap works, NIO effectively specify the dimensions of the battery packs, set up their stations, and plainly 200 stations and 500,000 battery swaps shows its working for the NIO club.

How you set up a battery swap multi make-station that only takes up 2 parking spaces would seem to be impossible and the video for that did show numerous different makes trooping into the booth. The stock of different batteries fully charged to be loaded up would surely take up the rest of the car park :-D

Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8313
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 372

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Mandrake »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
03 Mar 2021, 14:56
An interesting video Simon but it skips over the fact that not all oil production is used for transport, although it has risen to almost double in recent years.
I think you may have missed the point of the video a little. It is specifically rebutting the argument frequently made that an EV just moves the pollution back to the power plant instead of the tailpipe.

How much oil is used for non energy purposes, for example making plastics is an entirely separate debate. (including recycling plastics etc instead of burying them in landfill) Those materials also have a carbon and pollution footprint if they are not recycled and just go into landfill at the end of their life.

You can't make plastic from electricity alone of course, nor any of the other materials and chemical compounds derived from hydrocarbons. But you can provide the motive energy for a car purely from electricity. So if you do still need oil to make physical goods why not save the oil for that purpose instead of wasting it by burning it for energy (at a poor 20-30% efficiency in a car no less) when there are other ways of generating distributing and using energy without burning something pumped up from under the ground? That has always been my argument. And of course recycle as many hydrocarbon sourced materials as possible to minimise the need for new oil.

No, not all oil goes to transport uses but your own article says it is 63.7% which is pretty high. The 8.5% "industry" figure may or may not also be getting burnt. (For example for oil based heating in an area without a gas connection) Use of oil could be dramatically cut if it was reserved for non-energy uses.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 10:49
What's noticeable on the battery swap videos is how clean everything is, I wonder how good it would work in real life when you need a battery change after 50 miles on a motorway or farm track road on a wet day.
Looks like they wouldn't let me in the Battery Swap booth today Gibbo!
Looks like they wouldn't let me in the Battery Swap booth today Gibbo!
Regards Neil

Wookey
Donor 2019
Posts: 238
Joined: 28 Dec 2004, 09:43
x 6

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Wookey »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
17 Feb 2021, 13:58
Havent found much since but in 2016 BMW Ford VW Group (inc Audi and Porsche) and Daimler clubbed together with Ionity to build a network of 400 fast charging points across Europe.
Zap-map tell us that there are 12 around the UK (11 England, 1 Scotland) totally 54 chargers, and 5 stations in Ireland with 18 chargers.
https://www.ionitychargers.com/statistics-by-country/ tells us there there are 5 more stations under construction in the UK. Most are in Germany (100stations, 410 chargers) and France (73 stations, 294 chargers).
So I guess that's a reasonable network of fast chargers. I imagine there are going to be a _lot_ more installed over the next decade as the mass switchover occurs. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to keep supply and demand more or less in sync as it doesn't take very long to install some chargers. I gather that finding sites is the hardest part (according to Gridserve, at least for their model of big facilities).

User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 24102
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
x 2582

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I see Hyundai are recalling 82k electric vehicles due to potential fire risk on the batteries!

Turns out that some of the fire risks occurred after a software update to ‘fix’ the issue, so obviously still a concern.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufa ... -fire-risk

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 15933
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1606

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

GiveMeABreak wrote:
05 Mar 2021, 13:29
I see Hyundai are recalling 82k electric vehicles due to potential fire risk on the batteries!
Turns out that some of the fire risks occurred after a software update to ‘fix’ the issue, so obviously still a concern.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufa ... -fire-risk
That's had a few column inches on the Electric Cars: Whats Available thread" Marc, and over on "Car News Global and domestic" where I tried to nudge over the discussion.

The first word was this, and relatively quickly it move to an official Hyundai response, bit of finger pointing then a quick "settlement" of funding of the replacements between the 2 South Korean Companies LG Energy Solutions and Hyundai. I guess drawn out legal wrangling needed avoiding, and an agreed "fix" actioned quickly.

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 11:59
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 10:17
With the positive there is always a bit of negative for balance. Maybe even a whole dollop of negative.....

Make your own mind up, reported by Electrek

https://electrek.co/2021/02/17/hyundai- ... -in-korea/

Regards Neil
And on the ICE side of the coin.....fighting fires on a couple of fronts!

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/recalls/ ... -c-2095392

Regards Neil