Bargain Basement Electric

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by RichardW »

Average price of Diesel near me at the moment is 129.9p / litre, subtract 57.95p / litre tax leaves you 71.95p / litre, convert that to UK gallons and that's 327p / gallon. With a 60mpg car that works out to 5.45p / mile.
Mandrake wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 12:32
I didn't omit VAT, all prices I quoted are VAT inclusive.
You did, sort of... VAT on road fuel is charged on the full amount - i.e. on the TAX as well!! So the net cost of a 1.30 litre of fuel is 1.30/1.2-57.95 i.e. 50.4p. Mine does 10.5 miles / litre (47.5mpg) so that is 4.8p/mile net. If you get 4.5 miles / kWh average in the Ion at 12.5p/kWh (with 5% VAT) = 2.64p/mile net. OK....that's pretty close to 2!
Mandrake wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 12:32
You bring up a good point though that residential electricity is only 5% VAT vs 20% for petrol and Diesel... as I'm not originally from here I don't know what the historical reasons for that are and whether that's likely to change in future ?

I see that some businesses are charged 20% VAT on electricity - I wonder if that applies to public charging providers and might explain some of the additional cost of public charging ?
I presume that Road fuel has been VATed since VAT started (1973) - domestic 'fuel' was zero rated, but added in early 90's to huge outcry - EU rules now forbid its removal (see the 'tampon tax'). I suspect that we will get pay per mile and it will be applied to both EV and ICE (possibly with road fuel reduction) - but this may only apply to new cars from a certain date that are black box equipped - big brother will be watching you!!

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:
18 Dec 2019, 13:47
I presume that Road fuel has been VATed since VAT started (1973) - domestic 'fuel' was zero rated, but added in early 90's to huge outcry - EU rules now forbid its removal (see the 'tampon tax'). I suspect that we will get pay per mile and it will be applied to both EV and ICE (possibly with road fuel reduction) - but this may only apply to new cars from a certain date that are black box equipped - big brother will be watching you!!
I was actually meaning I don't know what the rationale or history behind residential electricity (and gas ?) being 5% VAT is when nearly all other things you buy including Petrol are 20% ?

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Another rapid charger first for us....Alnwick just off the A1. Right next to the castle behind the main street.
There was a large white mitsubishi hybrid thing using the chademo when we arrived. Charging session had finished but theres the dilemma......

....do you just unplug it and shove it in your own vehicle?

Decided against it because I looked at the parking disc on the car and saw the arrival time was about 45 mins ago, so instead of going off to the other one in Alnwick at the Leisure Centre, just waited to see if they came back like a well-mannered EV driver should.

Within a few minutes they were back and all systems go.
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REgards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by mickthemaverick »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
20 Dec 2019, 21:57
Another rapid charger first for us....Alnwick just off the A1. Right next to the castle behind the main street.

REgards Neil
My sister did her teacher's training course at Alnwick College 1964-67. Is the college still there do you know Neil? :)

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

mickthemaverick wrote:
20 Dec 2019, 22:10

My sister did her teacher's training course at Alnwick College 1964-67. Is the college still there do you know Neil? :)
According to this
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 97977a0779
The College started as an emergency teacher training college in 1945 and leased part of Alnwick Castle. It later had other properties in the town of Alnwick - see CES/273/2 for details
Some records held at Northumberland Archives at QEII Country Park Ashington
Which you will drive past on your way to the Drift Cafe at Cresswell. :-D

I like a delve, and have never actually visited the Northumberland Archives before but pass by virtally every week, so just out of my own curiosity I may pop in and have a look.

Regards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by mickthemaverick »

At least I don't have to reroute so I'll keep that in mind as long as it won't make me late for lunch!! :-D

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by bobins »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
20 Dec 2019, 23:17

According to this
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... 97977a0779
The College started as an emergency teacher training college in 1945 and leased part of Alnwick Castle. It later had other properties in the town of Alnwick - see CES/273/2 for details
Some records held at Northumberland Archives at QEII Country Park Ashington
Which you will drive past on your way to the Drift Cafe at Cresswell. :-D

I like a delve, and have never actually visited the Northumberland Archives before but pass by virtally every week, so just out of my own curiosity I may pop in and have a look.

Regards Neil
Does that mean it was hurriedly converted into a teacher training college as they were short of suitable buildings, or does that mean they were teaching teachers in how to deal with emergencies ? :-D

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Out and about today, had to wait for a white Tesla Model 3 to finish its charge before we could plug-in.
Hit one of those notable milages on the way home 30303....camera out of battery though.

Thats 1900 miles so far and have only used a pay-for public charger 4 times to the tune of around £20 in total.

Not a bad bonus...£200+ saving on buying petrol at £1.25/litre.

Regards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

This the state of play as of January 1st 2020
Over the 2000 miles mark now, started out at pretty much 28400 on November 15th.
So far with the only time we have paid for a charge up was on our trip down to West Yorkshire, and that amouted to about £20 all told.

Currently there really is that bonus in fuel saving between electric and petrol/diesel, (in Northumberland anyway :-D ). The secondhand market isnt abounding with choice, but I have to say, very pleased with the Leaf so far and do you know what, I like the way it looks with its deep red sheen and it shiny ears. :-D
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REgards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

New charging point for us today Wylam at Stephenson Terrace Car park. Yes named after George Stephenson he of Railway pioneering fame, born at a cottage just down the track from the car park.
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As you can see next to us with the mouth open is a 19 reg New Leaf. Was about up at 65ish % done when we arrived, so had a walk around got lunch and came back. Unfortunately discovered that the New leaf was up at 85%, clearly not on the cut off at 80% setting to maximise battery life.

Hung around a while but as I have come to know if it was on a 100% charge up the last 10% once it hit 90% was going to take ages. Drove off for a coffee and cake and thankfully by the time we got back the "new Leaf" had departed.

Have to say that car must have spent about 1hr 40 minutes or more on the chademo getting that thing charged to 100%.

REgards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by Gibbo2286 »

I just had a thought Neil, if you were a bad boy could you unplug the car already on charge and push it out of the way to get yours on? :)

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Hopefully the world of electric vehicles has its own book of unwritten etiquette!

....but.....as I found out when one of those new Leaf owners asked me to unplug the ac charger he had temporarily plugged in when I had finished with the chademo, and plug the chademo into his while he disappeared off on a walk, the car can lock the cable in place.

You can stop the charge on those chargers by simply touching the stop button on the screen, so the petulant gesture is always available for severe offenders without resorting to potential vandalism.

I think over 1 and a half hours spent on the charger is a bit over the top, but those Leafs have larger capacity batteries than mine (40kWh, rather then 24 kWh), and contrary to the best advice for preserving battery life, they were charging it to 100%.

Here's my little Leaf. Getting quite used to it now, and in spite of being on the edge of civilisation in rural Northumberland, and currently it being our only car, so far it's suiting us fine.

The totally free fuel is going to last until April when NCC may start to charge for the 20 or so rapids, but the 7kW chargers may escape. After that likely to hit the 1/4 the cost of petrol/diesel level.
the nice colour and the shiny ears are growing on me   nf own work
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Regards Neil

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by Mandrake »

Unplugging another car that has finished charging is an interesting conundrum if you’re desperate for a charge to keep moving, ignoring the etiquette side of it here is the technical side:

Many rapid chargers cannot be stopped by a 3rd party while charging. This applies to Ecotricity and most (all that I’ve tried) Chargeplace Scotland. To stop these before the car is finished you have to re-present the same RFID card that started the charge (if you started the charge using the card) or cancel the session in the app if you started it with the smartphone app. Just pressing stop doesn’t work.

However some other rapid chargers notably Instavolt can be stopped by any passerby simply by pressing the stop button as you have noted.

Chademo and CCS treat plug locking differently. Chademo has the locking mechanism in the actual plug belonging to the charger so unlocking the plug is under the control of the charger and as far as I know all rapid chargers unlock a Chademo plug automatically at the end of a charging session regardless of whether the car finished charging or the charge was manually stopped.

So if you find a car plugged into Chademo which has naturally finished charging you should be able to remove the plug without the assistance of the owner. Whether that’s good etiquette or not is up to you!

In CCS (and AC charging) the plug locking is done by the car using a solenoid pushing a pin into the plug and therefore is under the control of the car not the charger.

As a general rule a CCS plug will NOT unlock automatically at the end of a charge so you usually wouldn’t be able to unplug a CCS car that has finished charging without the owners cooperation.

It depends on the model of car though. Some won’t unlock the plug until the car itself is unlocked or a certain button is pressed on the fob.

For AC Type 2 charging most cars will not unlock the plug until the car is unlocked to prevent theft of an untethered charge cable.

Some Type 1 cars support AC plug locking (I think the Leaf does ?) however some like my Ion do not so I can only lock the AC cable with a miniature padlock which is a bit of a pain...(not a problem at home as I have a tethered charge cable but an issue if I use my untethered cable on a public charger)

Some untethered AC public chargers will unlock the plug at the charger end as soon as the charge finishes but some will not unlock it unless the plug is removed at the car end first. It all depends on the specific implementation!

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bobins
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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by bobins »

Do the various Apps let you know the state of charging whilst you're out and about wandering around the shops ? Do the apps make a 'ping' noise to let you know it's finished charging - not unlike a microwave when it's finished cooking :) .... a missed opportunity if they don't :-D

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Re: Bargain Basement Electric

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Can’t answer that question Bobins, but I do have a smartphone now, an oldish Samsung which has been discarded and landed in my lap. Need to get a mini sim apparently, but have lost the ability to communicate my obscure needs for the said phone with anyone at carphone warehouse :-D

All I want it for is to be able to access the electric highway when desperate, where such things mandatorily require an app for access and pay the absolute minimum for the privilege

Regards Neil