405: Major Works

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white exec
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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by white exec »

The only hose run you'll probably need is one from the water outlet (thermostat and sensor housing - big red arrow) to the new header tank.
IIRC, the unused vertical snout on ours was approx 12mm diameter. It was unused on our engine, and just needed a drill put down the snout and opening up, as it was blanked at its bottom end by shallow bit of the casting.
Any decent motor factor will be able to supply coolant hosing in various diameters.

Perhaps you can post a photo of your engine bay, and the water outlet?

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

I'm getting there Chris, edited copies of your images with text as I'm 'getting it'

It'd be really helpful if one of my BoL's gave me a Cooling Schematic for my 405
....but while BoL 950 (Peugeot/Talbot Diesel Engine) gives me a very early one
....BoL 3198 (405 Diesel) doesn't supply one at all.

Its raining hard here at the moment so I can't take a look under the bonnet very 'efficiently' as yet to work it out that way, but I'll get there.

Next thing is, where is the Hose that I'm going to put on the Bottom of the Expansion Tank, to Feed into the junction at the rear of the engine; attached at the moment.
03b Citroen Visa Layout.jpg
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We have a temporary Printer Scanner at the moment hence the Heath Robinson approach
20191025_095100.jpg
.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

I was busy with the Fuel Filter / Stat Assembly yesterday by the way. Imagine my delight, upon spending the better part of an hour cleaning that off the ZX 'Spares' engine, which was much cleaner than the 306 one (in part coz, unlike the 306 lump, its been stored with its Fuel Filter Housing on it for the past three years)

...to realise that the Cable for the Cold Start was badly frayed at the clamp, so its 'unusable' without changing the Cold Start thingy.

...so I ended up cleaning this.
Fuel Filter 10 Stat Assembly 306.jpg
Its now re-fitted, with stat; but I omitted to get an 'overview' photo.
Cooling 25 Thermostat Fitted.jpg
I was tempted to use the shiny new looking stat from the ZX lump, but nowhere was it marked with its opening temp; even though the mfr had bothered to stamp it "Motorad" which was a bit daft, so I robbed its un-perished rubber for this one which I've tested on which the rubber was perished.

Does anyone definitively know whether there's s'posed to be a Gasket on this housing, I think not, but I'm not 100%

I also took half of the Interior of the car apart to lift the carpet, I'd forgotten that you have to take top and bottom trims off to get to the hidden B Pillar screws behind the seat-belt. That was boring. Having lifted the carpet I did find just a little water, enough to feel my efforts had been worthwhile. I'm gonna put that down to a window left ajar, unless it happens again...
Interior 09 Puddle.jpg
More worryingly, I also found water beneath the rear seat on the Offside, that's probably coming up past the Fuel Tank Sender. Another time, bigger things to think about....

Does anyone know whether or not I can do a half-accurate Compression Test with a cheap eBay Compression Tester, £12, turning the engine only on a Spanner, by the way? eBay 264295099230 and similar. It'd be a sensible precaution before I fit the new lump.

...or how difficult its gonna be to hold it if I set up the engine and box on the Ground with a Battery & Starter Motor; all of which I have kicking about handy.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

I’ve been over-thinking this, haven’t I (it’s a family trait)

So all I have to do really is to divert the Bypass Hose at its connection behind the Fuel Filter Pot, with a new length of plain Hose, to the Header Tank

and onwards to the Radiator via the Original Bypass Hose, which I'll need to lengthen a little (its a special 'Bayonet' type fitting where it meets the rad, so I can't use plain Hose) .

and that’ll do. Simple as that !

Do you know how many hours I've been scratching my head about this?!
...but that's me ! :argue:

Apologies if I tried yours Chris, or anyone else's patience !

The Air-Con gubbins, circled, will be coming out, so I can bang it on the Bulkhead here, in much the same place as shown / described on the BX.
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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by white exec »

A certain amount of telepathy going on today, Puxa.
I was actually thinking the same - the header tank issue has been overthought!

1. All that is necessary is to make a single hose take-off from the highest point possible on the cooling system, and route it to a low-level connection of the header tank. This will allow any trapped air to vent to the header tank, and surface harmlessly there.

2. The header tank should be about half full (engine cold) to provide an air space above the coolant, and avoid coolant loss as it expands.

3. The header tank should be sited at the highest point available - certainly above the take-off point - and your bulkhead suggestion is ideal.

4. Radiator to be fitted with a blanking cap; header tank with a pressure cap.

And that's it.

If you could post a photo of the thermostat housing/water outlet/where the temp sensors and 'stat are, that would be of interest.
___________

Some modern header tanks have multiple hose entry - often a large one near the base, and a smaller one nearer the top, plus an overspill pipe/hose just under the pressure cap, plus baffles or spirals moulded inside. The idea is to use the expansion tank as a "swirl chamber", where coolant enters via the small pipe, and swirls (de-aerates) before returning to the main coolant circuit via the larger pipe at the base. This has advantages, but is not necessary for modest engines, where a simple expansion/header arrangement will do fine.

"Offenders" I've come across with no expansion tank, and which consequently repetitively lost coolant if kept topped up to recommended levels have included
- early Mini and A-series engines
- Rover 2000 P6
- Rover 3500 V8
- Triumph Dolomite 1850
- BX 1.9 NA XUD

Without a header tank, there is nowhere for expanded coolant to go (except to waste), and on cooling, the system acquires a large air pocket (often in the top of the radiator). The issue is, if there are higher parts of the system (eg the BX XUD cylinder head), air can get trapped there too. Trapped air → hot spots → localised boiling → head-warping, coolant loss, and HG failure. Classic BX XUD stuff!

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by doctle »

you really need to spin the engine to get a compression reading. A battery and hump leads if its connected to the box would suffice

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

Thanks Doctle, with that in mind I'm gonna hold off on the Compression Tester for the minute; I did think that in all probability a Ratchet on the Bottom Pulley was never gonna suffice.

I have however just bought a 'new' Engine Hoist, which as yet I haven't collected. It may be the case that I can get it sufficiently steady, perhaps with a couple of Ratchet Tie Downs secured either end of it to Tent Pegs or similar; that I can spin it up on the Starter....

...or it may just flail about crazily, making it impossible to short the main lead and the Solenoid connection effectively.

Will it try & rotate 'backward', ie toward the Bulkhead, when the Starter turns?

Space limitations mean the lump 'll have to come out 'upwards', with the car returned to its wheels (and therefore the subframe in situ) to be pushed away backwards once the engine's clear of the slam panel. I won't have room to pull the engine & hoist forward of the car. Might be simpler to to detach the Gearbox before lifting, will see.

...and thanks again Chris. I'll add the pics regarding the Stat Housing & Senders later.
...you've also confirmed what I always suspected, that my Coolant's going out of the overflow, there's a small hole in the rad filler neck; hence the impossibility of keeping it on the Max' level.

...and talking of localised boiling, has anyone used VHT Paint recently? You should see the state of my Exhaust Manifold & Resonator, which I painted with VHT before fitting a year or two ago. Its either got so hot the VHT has flaked off, or the paint's rubbish. The former seems distinctly possible due to localised boiling.

If I can get a Header tank sorted in the next day or two, I can happily trust my 405 for the 100mile round trip for the Hoist.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by doctle »

Positive to the terminal on the starter negative to a good earth and she will spin the the right direction when you use the trigger (live) wire to the solenoid. The glow plugs will be out so it won't be too difficult to turn. I'd be inclined to test it in situ if it's good then pull it out if one or more cylinders has low compression you would save yourself a lot of work.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

Thanks Doctle. GP's are staying in. I've got a good resistance reading on all four, which suggests (albeit not infallibly) that they're ok. Will have them out when its hot if need be.

I know that on the Donor car the Clutch was knackered and the Injection Pump was weeping; more than enough reason to scrap it, specially in today's world; so hoping that elsewise its good. Its not fitted yet.

Chris: Sender pics as suggested.

My 405: if I'm correct the Brown Sender nearest the camera is for the AC. I need to careful where this gets its power in the course of removing what's left of the AC; as disconnecting this trips the fan failsafe to set them on fast. Blanked on the spare engines.
Blue I'm guessing is Temp Sender 'after Stat', this is common to the 306 and ZX lumps also. If I remove the feed to this the Temp Gauge still works.
Green sender partially hidden behind the Fuel Pot I'm guessing is Temp Sender 'pre-Stat'. I'ver never tried disconnecting this as its difficult to access
01a Three Senders & Temp Bodge.jpg
The eagle-eyed might've noticed two pin pricks in the insulation tape on my Bypass Hose, where the Bleed Screw should be. This together with this ugly bit of plastic bag, is my attempt at a 'Self-Bleed' until I've got a header tank on it; and ultimately its 'new' engine. Obviously it'll lose coolant too, but we'll see how quickly. Its primarily about keeping the coolant away from the air intake, which also has Insulation tape around its holes. I've not changed the Fuel Filter in 32k, but its never run low, so its of marginal importance.
01b Bodge.jpg
Better pic of the green Sender behind the fuel pot. Fuel pot sender also visible (with green/yellow wires)
02 Rear Senders.jpg
This is the ZX Lump. The Senders and Blanks were the same on the 306. Neither had AC IIRC (the 306 didn't even have PAS)
03 ZX.jpg
I can't be sure, but I'm guessing this is the second water temp sender on the ZX. Apologies for awful photo. Its pee-ing it down here again so I've used what photos I have rather than uncover the engines. Only the ZX Lump has this Sender, on the other two engines its blanked off.
04 ZX Rear.JPG

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by doctle »

Senior moment there

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

no worries Doctle, and just a quick update from me to, perhaps ironically; say that due to my movements over the next few days, there are unlikely to be any updates from me, for the better part of a week.

...except to say that touch wood, first impressions are that my spectactularly nasty bodge with the Pin Holes and Plastic Sheath is working rather well.

...and I ordered an aluminium Breather Tank online after a gander around my local scrappies and a good search online, including for Chris' aforementioned Austin-Rover item, was largely fruitless. I was surprised at the scrappies by the 'special fittings' and 'brake pipe style' Hoses on the modern vehicles there and also the large size and complexity of the mouldings of many of the Header Tanks, but a 2005 Clio tank looked 'possible'

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by white exec »

Coolant temp sensor colours are pertty much standardised across our engines:

Brown
Triggers cooling fans to come on at full speed when it goes open circuit (or disconnected).
Early cars - simple switch
Later cars with ECU controlled fan speeds - variable resistance

Blue
Feeds the gauge (called 'dial' in some parts lists)
Variable resistance

Green
On fuel-injected cars, this feeds coolant temp to the injection ECU.
Not sure what this might do on your NA engine.
???? Could be a High Temp dash warning light, and this a simple thermal switch ????
(BX had one of these)

Any spare port on the water outlet casting will do for the header tank.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

Thanks Chris for the explanation of the Senders, which will be useful.

A bit of an update, coz I'm aware its been about a week and I suggested approx that sort of a time-scale in a previous post.

This week's shenanigans, where circumstances have allowed for car stuff; have related to an Engine Hoist, which has been sourced at a very reasonable cost.

It clearly was never gonna fit in either of the family Hatchbacks availabe to me, so I was pleased that my car made the 110mile round trip without issue; I had half-expected to need to stop every 10-20miles and part way up big hills; but the pins in the Coolant Hose bodge is working incredibly well; almost embarrassingly so for such a nasty and simple measure; it seems to be losing no water whatsoever and the system's no longer Air-Locking. The MPG's gonna suffer, coz I'm rarely managing 70c on the gauge; but I can live with that.... as I can live with the heater working better than you'd expect at such low coolant temps.

I also note that the 'rapidly climbing temp after idling in traffic' syndrome is gone, perhaps coz there's precious little pressure in the system ...or maybe the HG's been iffy for longer than I thought.

Some minor repairs to the Hoist have been necessary, relating to stripped bolt threads; but a local supplier has come up trumps with the necessary hardware.

...so today I put it together and sorted out some chains to do a dummy run, as pictured. I only took up the slack in the chains before releasing it.
FCF Copy.jpg
I did briefly dally, again, with the idea of using Steel Seal, as the person that sold me the Hoist advised of its successful employment by a Car Sales business; but I've also heard of Water Pumps expiring soon after its use which definitely wouldn't be a roadside repair; and a Car Sales outfit might not be aware of problems 3 months down the line; so I'm not going to put any sort of muck in my cooling system other than Anti-freeze and De-Ionised Water; instead I'll stick with 'Plan A'.

Next up is to ensure that my chain arrangement is up to the job, so I'm gonna be lifting one of my spare lumps; probablly with the spare wheel beneath it, definitely not me; in case of mis-hap.

The new Header / Breather tank is here, beautifully packaged (odd idea, its a car part, not a Hip Flask), but aside from a quick glance at it, ordering of some genuine Jubilees and an in line Hose connnector; I've done no more. Getting that connected up and tested on the current engine will follow.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur »

So, a little update from me.
01 Hoisting.jpg
Engine lifting was uneventful, save for a slightly bent Lifting Eye. Its easy to see why it bent, coz without a Spreader Bar, I'm 'pulling sideways', so I'm going to look at potential ways of strengthening the mount / bolting up something stronger.

One of the key reasons for the dry run was to see how much the engine moved on lifting; and I was surprised that the answer was 'very little'. If it was gonna sway like crazy on lifting and potentially put a huge crack in me front end, which I've toyed with removing but probably won't...Pump
SS102406.JPG
....I wanted to know about it in advance. It just came a little 'vertical' and dipped slightly at the Gearbox end. Definitely nothing to be concerned about.

The new Header Tank and all of its associated Gubbins are here, including some eye-wateringly expensive Hose (nearly £8 a metre). I worked out I should need about 130cm including an 'Overflow'.
02 Header.jpg
Seeing as the car's running so well, time is short and it just keeps on raining every time :oops: I try to make progress (its that time of year after all); I've put off fitting it for the moment, which I can see taking hours on end by the time I've faffed with suitable bracketry to get it to mate nicely with the Bulkhead.

Instead, getting the engine 'turnable' is the next priority by fitting the 'new' Injector Pump thereby allowing me to 'unlock' the Cam Belt Pulleys.....

...next time.

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Re: 405: Major Works

Post by white exec »

The header tank is very posh; didn't expect that!
Is its cap a pressure cap? Needs to be about 1.3bar.