The Hydrogen Thread

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

I think its fair to say that one of the biggest players in the "Hydrogen" lobby are the Oil and Gas industry. Their strategy...."bait and switch".
Paul Martin-Hydrogen from renewable electricity-our future
The bait and switch is simple: build new uses for hydrogen with the promise of future cheap green hydrogen. When the cheap green stuff fails to materialize, sell them blue (fossil plus CCS), or black(no CCS)- the latter being all that exists today. Forget about jets fuelled with H2, and most industrial heating can be served better by electric than by H2. We do need to replace all the black H2 first in my opinion- or at least SOME, before we even consider inefficient new uses like heating or transport.
The source of this article is cleantechnica....very much pro-renewables/ pro-electric.

Big Oil is fuelling the Hydrogen rush

REgards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by Sloppysod »

I've read most of this post, yes concentration levels not so good, anyway, earlier in the thread there was mention of the Oil & Gas companies pushing the 'traditional' method of producing Hydrogen from there 'Traditional' products - the blackstuff.
Has anyone seen the film "Chain Reaction"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_Rea ... 1996_film), Not the best film in the world, runs out of steam near the end, but does explain the problem of discovering something the oil & Gas compnaies dont like.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chain%2 ... tch%20free


PS, noone talks about eth waterpowered engine do they, but it did exist - google it, or is that something for another thread?

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Sloppysod wrote:
29 Dec 2020, 12:16
PS, noone talks about eth waterpowered engine do they, but it did exist - google it, or is that something for another thread?
There is a thread "Interesting and unusual Engines" here

https://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ ... hp?t=61099

Welcomes any such contributions :-D

Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Read this piece of Hydrogen News today
Scotland set to recieve its first Hydrogen-powered train this year

A group of Scottish engineers and researchers will deliver a production-ready and safety certified hydrogen-powered train by November 2021. Scottish Enterprise, Transport Scotland and the Hydrogen Accelerator have been appointed by Arcola Energy and a consortium of industry leaders to deliver Scotland’s first hydrogen-powered train.

The consortium will be led by hydrogen fuel cell integration specialist Arcola Energy and will draw on the expertise of world-leading rail engineering experts. Arcola Energy will develop the technology platform for the train’s new powertrain from its planned new Scottish base. Project partner Arup will use the learnings from this project to develop a roadmap to roll out hydrogen trains to support the decarbonisation of Scotland’s network.
When I read that, I think to myself, is this not just duplication, has a hydrogen train not already been invented, and tested and trialled and actually carrying passengers for some time now. :?:

There is a manufacturing facility in Wigan, yes its the "international firm Alstom" but a "manufacture in the UK" boost from another sales opportunity north of the Border source is surely the path of least resistance. Scotland does have a possibility of green hydrogen sustaining hydrogen trains, and maybe one of the rail networks where hydrogen may fit weighed up against physically extending electrification.

I was quite impressed with Alstom in this little presentation posted earlier in the thread.
Spoiler: show
NewcastleFalcon wrote:
19 Nov 2020, 14:56
and on the "continent"

Following successful trials in Germany, the Coradia iLint – a hydrogen fuel cell powered train developed by French rail giant Alstom – has begun carrying passengers on Austria’s train network.

but maybe of more interest Alstom's plans for the UK. Its presented in a "presentation" format but is less than 9 minutes and very informative. Good news for Widnes =D> go the green industrial revolution :-D

Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Crikey Stellantis in the news for innovation, but are they barking up the wrong tree :?:

Yes the date is April 2nd so lets hope the report has gone past the day for reporting rubbish.
from Inside EV's https://insideevs.com/news/498495/stell ... ell-system
The company intends to offer plug-in FCVs.
Stellantis - the automotive group created from the combination of the PSA Group and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) - announced today an all-new mid-power hydrogen fuel cell system architecture.

The company is already engaged in the battery-electric and plug-in hybrid segment, but according to the latest press release, it would like to achieve zero-emission driving, long-range, short refueling time and no compromises in terms of payload by using hydrogen fuel cells. Of course, all in a package available at a reasonable cost. But is it even possible?


Regards Neil

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mickthemaverick
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by mickthemaverick »

Well having watched that video I do think they might be on to a winner, all depending on price and of course infra structure. However the concept is quite possibly the best overall option designed so far. Pretty much remove range anxiety and charging point searches just by expanding the installation of hydrogen pumps at existing filling stations which would at least relieve the high potential grid loadings if all our cars were to become BEVs. It will be interesting to see the prices!! :)

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by Peter.N. »

I don't see how they can viably produce hydrogen. They do it on Orkney but they have loads of spare capacity there.

Peter

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by Gibbo2286 »

It looks like the whole of the science world is working on that Peter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Peter.N. wrote:
03 Apr 2021, 00:00
I don't see how they can viably produce hydrogen. They do it on Orkney but they have loads of spare capacity there.
There is a bit of a queue in the Hydrogen production bandwagon and enough players, offering their services to make it happen no matter how inefficient the process is, or how difficult or expensive it is to transport it to where it is needed or to keep the lightest and smallest element confined in pipelines.

H2 has some properties which make it an easy sell to policymakers and governments around the world, and the reason, as well as the vested interests of oil and gas companies, why so much investment is heading its way.
Burn Hydrogen and all you produce is beautiful clean water Image

You can make it from water producing hydrogen for fuel and beautiful clear oxygen to breathe Image

Hydrogen isn't going to run out, the world has water water everywhere to make as much hydrogen as we need Image

You can fill up your tank in a few minutes just like petrol Image
Only one general negative
An Airship Exploded in 1937
cross.png
cross.png (1.85 KiB) Viewed 121 times
In order of perceived merit,
Green Hydrogen-Using Surplus Wind/Solar/Hydro and Electrolysers.
Like on Orkney, as an alternative to Batteries as an energy store for any surplus generated on a 24/7 basis from wind generation in particular. Developments happening all the time eg
The Global Race to Produce Hydrogen Offshore Seems a touch crazy to me. Electricity is reasonably well contained in cables, better and more efficient, less costly than hydrogen in a pipe :?:
Blue Hydrogen- Yes the new Energy Companies (former Big Oil and Gas) will happily take methane, put an enormous amount of energy into it, and steam reform it or crack it into Hydrogen to store a tiny proportion of the energy put into making it. As put in a comment I read...
"So they are going to use vast amounts of energy to remove energy from methane to make a gas that is a lousy motor fuel."
Don't worry about that.....Old Big Oil and Gas will be ready and willing to make as much blue hydrogen as they can with a fairly safe bet that the volume of proper Green Hydrogen will not be sufficient short or long term to destroy the market for blue hydrogen.
Grey Hydrogen Let's be generous and not call it "black", but basically business as usual, producing hydrogen from Oil and gas without bolting on any Carbon capture and storage complications.
I do follow the Hydrogen Story with interest, but is the thing at the heart of it a desire to recreate the experience of the past, hydrogen stations replacing petrol stations, hydrogen replacing the gas in your home cooker or boiler with no noticeable change, and attempting to pipe the worlds lightest element in pipework that struggles to contain methane, and which will undoubtedly require business as usual, natural gas to be extracted, and processed by the usual suspects, to feed point of use hydrogen to homes and fuel pumps.

Hydrogen does seem an unnecessary step. It would be more efficient to make electricity from Natural gas with carbon capture and storage than to make blue hydrogen, but there is a hydrogen bandwagon which stubbornly isn't going away anytime soon.

Regards Neil

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by mickthemaverick »

I certainly take on board all you posted there Neil. As I see it the biggest two issues with bev tech at the moment are cost and refuelling time. When battery {or other electricity storage device) technology gets to the point of a 300 mile recharge in a couple of minutes and availabilty matches the current petrol structure then all that will be needed is comparable costings and all the reservations will be removed. I just hope it doesn't happen too quickly so people can make a measured transition. :)

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Post number 101, reply number 100 and a first for the thread...

Whats this then?
Image


If nothing else its an interesting idea. An H2 Hybrid Electric Motorcycle. It has a fuel cell, and will uses replaceable and refillable hydrogen fuel canisters.

Image

Regards Neil

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mickthemaverick
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by mickthemaverick »

That's definitely a step up from the original Segway!! :-D

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bobins
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles still alive?

Post by bobins »

That'll be one of them Light Cycles from Tron :lol:

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The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Slight title change to bring all Hydrogen-related discussions/news stories/ developments/ fuel cell vehicles/ under the one roof. :-D

Contributors as ever always welcomed.

Regards Neil

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by myglaren »

I am very sceptical about hydrogen power.
On the other hand, the Hydrogen Sonata makes good reading (Iain M Banks).