The Hydrogen Thread

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

This lot have set up their UK "wing" here

Hangar C2 Cotswold Airport, Kemble, Cirencester, England, GL7 6BA

Day out in the Zoe territory for Gibbo, Day out in a light aircraft for Mick!

Bit of coverage in the Gloucestershire press from last year
https://www.soglos.com/business/49651/H ... estershire

This covers a bit about them, but this test flight was at Cranfield


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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Bit of a more recent update, this is what they are working on now, at Cotswold Airport



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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by mickthemaverick »

We did that last year Neil!! :-D

viewtopic.php?p=702594&hilit=Kemble#p702594
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Gibbo2286 wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 10:59 That Suez Group run council refuse collection in some UK cities, maybe we'll get Hydrogen dust carts. :)
Aberdeen unsurprisingly are one of the cities with a Hydrogen dust cart.

Aberdeen City Council joins hydrogen refuse truck trial

Meanwhille if you fancy a day out to Newport Dust Cart spotting, Newport have a battery electric dust-cart.

Story Here
viewtopic.php?p=709891#p709891

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Birmingham had them when I were a lad Neil :-D
I think they're buying more now.
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Renault's time machine set to reverse. :?: Or has the phrase "With a Hydrogen Engine" been mistranslated :?: Surely they aren't considering the most inefficient and wasteful way of using green energy by producing hydrogen with it and then burning it in a combustion engine to power their little cars...and piping the NOx out of an exhaust pipe. Maybe they mean a fuel-cell and an electric motor marginally less contradictory with their "company's recently announced objective of achieving a 100% electric energy mix by 2030" quoted at the end of the press release.

First teaser for the future Renault concept-car
2022 - Future Renault concept-car.jpg
• RENAULT UNVEILS THE TEASER FOR A NEW CONCEPT CAR EMBODYING THE COMMITMENTS OF ITS SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY: ENVIRONMENT, SAFETY, INCLUSION

• THIS UNPRECEDENTED CONCEPT-CAR, WITH A HYDROGEN ENGINE, EMBODIES THE DECARBONIZATION TRAJECTORY OF THE GROUP AND THE RENAULT BRAND AS WELL AS THEIR PROGRESS IN TERMS OF CIRCULAR ECONOMY, RECYCLED AND RECYCLABLE MATERIALS

• ON-BOARD TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATIONS SERVE THE SAFETY OF THE DRIVER AND USERS

• INCLUSION IS PRESENT THROUGH THE DIVERSITY OF THE TEAMS AND THE ACCESSIBILITY OF THE VEHICLE


This unique concept translates the Group's sustainable development commitments and interprets them for the Renault brand, in the service of sustainable, safe and inclusive mobility

Designed under the direction of Gilles Vidal, Renault Design Director, this concept car is part of the company's recently announced objective of achieving a 100% electric energy mix by 2030.
This new concept car will be unveiled in May 2022

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by mickthemaverick »

:As their stated aim is 100% electric I would assume they mean a hydrogen fuel cell car! :)
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

There isn't much more Mick, but the first article I read on it was this from Cleantechnica which went 100% the interpretation of "Hydrogen engine" as a Hydrogen Combustion engine. There is nothing else officially released on the concept other than plans for it's official launch in May 2022.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/26/re ... ncept-car/

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by mickthemaverick »

Having read that I have to agree, it does look like the plan is burning H rather than a fuel cell. To me that obviously presents Renault with a dilemma, go H ICE amd break their 100% electric objective or maintain that by the inefficient fuel cell option. I guess it is a case of wait and see!! :)
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Hydrogen has many uses, for example, the first car to use a hydrogen fuel cell was
invented by General Motors in 1966. It was a key component in town gas that powered UK
homes before the discovery of North Sea gas. When produced cleanly, hydrogen is one of
the greenest forms of energy we have – which is why we plan to blend up to 20 per cent
hydrogen into the natural gas grid and will take a final decision by the end of next year.

Surely not.

I can see the value in using hydrogen for grid storage of renewable energy, so that the fluctuations in generation of renewable energy can be managed, and used within the closed loop of the Electricity Grid.

Use Electrolysis to produce Hydrogen, to make it available for other uses immediately wastes 25% of the electricity you started out with. That at any sort of scale of production of "clean Hydrogen" is an enormous waste of energy resources.

So what are you left with to pump up to 20% into the grid. The ridiculous recipe of "Blue Hydrogen".

Take energy rich and currently hideously expensive Natural Gas, steam reform it to produce Hydrogen, "capture" the waste products, and pipe them out under the ocean, into a leaking sieve, permanent storage in former gas fields.

Worth a revisit of Dave's Blue Hydrogen vid, seeing as "Hydrogen" appears to have morphed into and "Energy Source" now in the minds and thinking of those that decide what needs doing. Teesside, Humberside, and Aberdeen and its Acorn project certainly wouldn't give Dave justhaveathink? a fair hearing, and probably wouldnt regard Blue Hydrogen as being a perpetuation of natural gas dependency, a more expensive fuel than the natural gas you started out with, or that Carbon Capture and Storage is a complete myth.

Its a while since I have watched it, maybe worth another look.



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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by myglaren »

^ Fully agree.
I remain very sceptical about hydrogen as a power source.
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by mickthemaverick »

Yes I totally agree with the horrendous wastage involved in Hydrogen as it stands. However two other points remain in the data pool for consideration -
1) So far Hydrogen is the only motor fuel alternative to petrol or diesel which allows full refuelling in a couple of minutes, a very significant factor in many motorists minds.
2) Despite the apparent wastage of green electricity in the production of the Hydrogen it really is a part of the energy recycling process which is warranted in any sustainable vehicle propulsion system. In the end the whole system is actually turning water into water!! :-D
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by bobins »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: 08 Apr 2022, 10:04

Take energy rich and currently hideously expensive Natural Gas...........

Regards Neil

<Ahem> On a point of order and for a bit of perspective, I think it's still cheaper to boil a kettle of water on the gas hob rather than use an electric kettle, though it's getting to be a close run thing these days 8-[
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Agree with the kettle boiling analogy pretty much resulting from this...

So domestic leccy costs more than domestic gas
because the leccy is produced using gas
the end product fuel is more expensive than the raw fuel.

Equally applicable to our friend Hydrogen

So green hydrogen costs more than green leccy
because the green hydrogen is produced by using the green leccy
the end product fuel is more expensive than the raw fuel.

So blue hydrogen costs more than natural gas
because the blue hydrogen is made from the natural gas
the end product fuel is more expensive than the raw fuel.

ditto for every other colour of hydrogen,

Odd thing too that the raw "fuel" (green leccy and natural gas) is a more energy-rich commodity than the hydrogen end product, the production of which at any sort of scale to inject 20% into the gas grid would be a colossal waste
of energy resources.

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by bobins »

Agreed.
But what would you do with surplus 'free' electricity at times when it's produced, but not needed, by renewable sources such as wind/solar power ? Bottling it up for use later seems like a good idea to me.
For an entirely fictitious scenario - if you wanted to be able to supply 1MW (or 2MW, or 3MW) of electricity for, say, a constant 7 days 'cos there's a dip in supply whilst the wind wasn't blowing and the sun wasn't shining, what's the 'best' (or more realistically, - least worst) way of doing it ? For 'best' you'd need to factor in simplest, cheapest, smallest land use, most versatile, lifespan, 'green-ness' etc, etc.
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