The Hydrogen Thread

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Gibbo2286
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by Gibbo2286 »

I've just watched one tof the Fully Charged videos where there's a German engineer doing a podcast, his view "Hydrogen, forget it." It's here but I warn you it's a long one. :)

https://fullycharged.show/podcasts/podc ... echniques/
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
04 Sep 2021, 12:30
"Hydrogen, forget it."
if you "follow the physics and the chemistry" that's the conclusion you would have to arrive at.
"Green hydrogen is pointless" You start with generating electricity, then you consume it by making hydrogen from it in a hugely energy inefficient electrolysis process, consume more energy to compress it liquefy it and store it, transport it by road, rail, or pipeline to point of use.
"Blue Hydrogen" is seen as the salvation of oil and gas producers. Again hugely energy inefficient You start off with lets face it a decent fuel Natural Gas (apart from defeating the object by giving off CO2 when you burn it), waste a lot of its natural energy content to make a worse fuel, and bolt on as yet unproven carbon capture and storage to greenwash the leaky process.
If you follow the politics, and the vested interest lobby groups for whom hydrogen is a lifeline to keeping their businesses alive, you come up with a different conclusion, and Governments across the world have their Hydrogen Strategies....the EU and the UK being cases in point.

I do think Hydrogen will be part of the mix, however inefficient the process of making it is.

Regards Neil
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Go on Dave, demolish some myths about blue hydrogen, as usual about 15 minutes to make your case.

On your marks, get set, just have a think!



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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Stu has posted up an interesting Video here on the Interesting/unusual engines thread re JCB's thinking on using Hydrogen as a solution to some of the problems of high working hours for some of heavier machinery.

viewtopic.php?p=698729#p698729

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Another wing of the Bamford Hydrogen Empire

https://ryzehydrogen.com/about/

Bit of activity in Herne Bay. What has Kent online got to say about it :?:

Work on Herne Bay hydrogen plant in Westbrook Lane to start this year


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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by Sloppysod »

NewcastleFalcon wrote:
02 Oct 2021, 11:58

I put a link on "the Hydrogen Thread" to your post Stu, which I set up to gather all things hydrogen as it is relevant there.

Must admit when I saw Bamford mentioned I thought immediately of vested interest, Another wing of the family run Wright bus over in NI, and are pretty decent grant getters, and heavily into the production and development of buses that run on H2.

I will give it a watch with an open mind as ever :-D Different problems to solve so different solutions may well be valid.

Regards Neil
Thanks Neil for copying my post from viewtopic.php?t=61099&start=225 and introducing me to this thread, should keep me quiet for a while reading the previous posts!!.
Yes the Bamford connection is his son, but I think that is more fuel cell rather than converted ICE's
I have seen elsewhere that these 'clean' engines can still produce low levels on NOx (oxides of nitrogen) that are still harmfull. It would be nice to see the full gas analysis and how that compares the the 'net zero' visions of the governments around the world.
Also, could this be an option like the LPG conversions?
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

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NewcastleFalcon wrote:
04 Sep 2021, 13:35
I do think Hydrogen will be part of the mix, however inefficient the process of making it is.
So what will fuel the development of Hydrogen. Proposals and investments which have a good chance of making a good return for the participators.

Hydrogen has already made its way into UK and EU decarbonisation strategies, large scale projects like the "blue" hydrogen development by BP on Teeside have got the green light, and stack up as a business proposition.

I was a little surprised that the Nationalgrid Electricity Service Operator in their Future Outlook saw Hydrogen Storage as their go to capacity storage on the grid. Not much mention of batteries at all.

National grid are perhaps not as independant as you might imagine. The global congolmerate National Grid plc is owned mainly by "institutional Investors" . NationalgridESO is one of those arms-length subsidiaries....just in case there is a conflict of interest with other elements of their business. (believe it if you want!).

The structure is here, probably not the greatest model of "independance" for responsibility for The Electricity Service.
Yes and there's National Grid Gas plc with responsibility for the gas grid.

So one wing prospers on the continuation of Gas, another on planning the electricity generation mix to keep the lights on.

Is it that surprising that they see a large role for Hydrogen in both grids.

National Grid plc are very likely to be removed from their role as System operator to be replaced with a Future Service Operator seen to be independant, the consultation on which has only just finished on 28th September 2021 as reported on the energy matters thread.

Heres an article from July when the consultation first started when the conclusion was very quickly and prematurely jumped to :-D

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... t-operator

Regards Neil
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Relevant post by Steve
myglaren wrote:
31 Oct 2021, 10:29
JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

Construction equipment maker JCB has signed a deal to buy billions of pounds of green hydrogen, defined as hydrogen produced using renewable energy.

The deal means JCB will take 10% of the green hydrogen made by the Australian firm Fortescue Future Industries (FFI).
"Production, mostly done outside the UK, is expected to begin early next year."

At least they wont be wasting the UK's Renewable energy resources making green hydrogen. If they can make it work they arent paying enough for their green electricity for their electrolysers.

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by Gibbo2286 »

As it's an Australian company I'd guess they have a lot of open space to collect renewable energy.
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
31 Oct 2021, 12:40
As it's an Australian company I'd guess they have a lot of open space to collect renewable energy.
Twiggy's on the job :-D
Fortescue Future Industries to build a 2 GW hydrogen electrolyser plant in Central Queensland

From iron ore magnate to renewable energy mogul, Dr Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest intends producing everything he needs to turn the world away from fossil fuels to green hydrogen. The latest? A renewable energy infrastructure-manufacturing facility in Aldoga, near Gladstone.
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Well here's "twiggy" I'll give him one thing, He's not coming from the hydrogen being the saviour of fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine. Talks a decent enough game and if you have an excess of renewable resources, over generation capacity, then the green hydrogen may work.

Maybe the presentation may not get past the 5 minute boring test...it is for the most part just a talking head...but he may have something and seems fully committed and positive. I managed the 17 minutes.



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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by Gibbo2286 »

My brother's family is in Queensland and one of my nephews works for Yuasa Batteries out there, I wonder if there will be vacancies for the work at this guy's new site. :)
https://www.acciona.com.au/projects/al ... lar-farm/
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

How do you sell 100 Toyota Mirai :?:

With a little bit of help from your friends...

DRIVR’s vehicles were funded under the European hydrogen for transport projects, Hydrogen Mobility Europe 2 (H2ME2) and Zero Emission Fleet vehicles For European Rollout (ZEFER).

Yes, loss leader for Toyota, EU policy makers persuaded, grants given.

Article here
DRIVR (app based Taxi Service) launches 100 hydrogen taxis in Copenhagen


Moving pictures from Youtube here ( in Danish but subtitles are available)

Regards Neil
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Re: The Hydrogen Thread

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Oh dear, the EU Politicians seemed to have swallowed the "green Hydrogen" bait hook line and sinker.

They must have a passion for wasting 75% of the electricity generated from renewable energy, and creating a consequential more expensive fuel. Still get the Renewable Energy Industry to build out over-capacity and they will sell the marginal electricity generated for next to nothing (er no they wont!) so it can be happily wasted to make green hydrogen to keep the price down at the "pumps".

Huge amount of wind/tide to flow through a huge amount of turbines before "superabundant" renewable energy can be logically wasted on making Hydrogen.

Over in Japan, they want to create a Hydrogen Economy fuelled by Australian Coal :-D Feature on the BBC the other day. So they export the emissions to Australia with its superabundant Coal, Australia burn the coal, capture any CO2 and other waste, and bury it under Australian soil, liquefy the H2, and a fleet of specially designed liquid hydrogen vessels sail it to Japan, where they run the economy on it including their Toyota cars. :-D

If I was Australia I would be charging Japan a fortune for the H2. Of course it may be the only way forward for Australian Coal. In theory the market for its coal should be disappearing with the global "phase down".
The mutual benefit economically may well make the arrangement prosper.
Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 10 Dec 2021, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.