Energy Matters Global and Domestic

[Dormouse]

"The exact capacity of wind power and energy storage needed in a net-zero emissions system depends partly on the availability of other technologies, some not yet widely available. If direct air capture, a negative-emissions technology, could be utilised, for example, heat pumps could use natural gas on the coldest days of the year, displacing some battery energy storage."





Blending in old and new systems in a single new unit?

Why not just keep the "redundant" old tech for a standby for when tough conditions come along. After all, isn't "Embodied Carbon" a big issue just now along with the "right to repair" white goods.

If it is good enough for your washing machine then why is it not any good for for your gas fire/boiler?

Do we continually need to keep making "new things" and just increasing the Consumer Spiral?

What was the mantra for Recycling?

REDUCE, RECYCLE, REUSE.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Its been 5 pages of our hopefully informative thread since Dave from justhaveathink has shown his face, but relevant to the repurposing of redundant assets...only 11 minutes for those interested.



Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

I follow Dave as well and find it both interesting and informative. However I did see in the system animated diagram that their plan still results in steam emitting from the cooling tower. I would have thought that the system would incorporate some form of exhaust turbine, if only to drive the incoming water pump?

[Dormouse]

agreed. All forms of energy capture should be deployed - heating greenhouses with waste heat springs to mind and I have no doubt that all sorts of lateral thinking could be applied.

[mickthemaverick]

I have believed in that concept since my OU days took me on a visit to a company in Bristol documented here!!

[NewcastleFalcon]

Right here right now?

Fusion energy must be a thing right here on planet earth and not just 93 million miles away taking the headline at face value.

Government sets out vision for UK's rollout of commercial fusion energy

So a rollout plan, would suggest that commercial fusion energy has been solved, and just a question of rolling it out.

What kind of fringe crackpot organisation could come up with that....The United Kindgom Atomic Energy Authority.

Here is the horses mouth account to click on should you wish to read more.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... ion-energy

Regards Neil

[Gibbo2286]

Maybe they have Neil, they were after all the first to build a nuclear power station.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Maybe they have Neil, they were after all the first to build a nuclear power station.

The first article I came across had this headline

"Gloucestershire site shortlisted for location of new prototype nuclear power plant"


Regards Neil

[Gibbo2286]

We had two before, Berkeley and Oldbury, so the locals are used to having them around maybe a bit less opposition from the anti nuke lot this time.
Also not too far away the Hinkley point set up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_ ... er_station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldbury_n ... er_station

[Dormouse]

Call me cynical but it is interesting that this announcement from the Government mentions Fossil Fuels and Global Gas Prices - ie Petrol Stations and Higher Heating Bills. You would almost think they planned it that way. They wouldn't, would they? Naw? Or are they just scrambling on the back of it?

[NewcastleFalcon]

This looks like its filling a few column inches in the popular and not so popular press. The direction set is quite important in bringing about the changes across manufacturing, skills and supply chains to bring about the move away from natural gas burning in domestic homes to electrification of domestic heating/hot water. The huge current dominance of gas heating in homes due to it being cheaper than electric heating is of course a massively difficult starting point, with the current alternatives not yet scaled up to be equivalent to the current gas heating in price.

Havent seen the document yet but this is what the official press release says.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plan ... clean-heat

The Scottish Government got theirs out a week or so ago. Same sort of thing.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/heat- ... buildings/

One of the ideas which the Hydrogen and gas lobby have been pushing for is pumping 20% Hydrogen through the gas grid, and then ramping up to 100% as hydrogen supplies increase. Governments have been sucking that one up for a while now but I have never quite got past the physics of making hydrogen from electricity you have already generated, consuming a fair chunk of it in the process to make a worse less transportable energy carrier.

REgards Neil

[bobins]

There was a piece on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning about air source heat pumps. There was a piece from a chap who'd had one installed in the property he was renovating. If I heard it correctly, he said the whole thing had been a bit of a PITA as they wouldn't fit the 100amp supply fuse until the unit had been load tested, and they couldn't load test it until the fuse had been fitted ! The scientist they interviewed had had a similar issue.
The fact that you need a 100amp fuse supply for a heat pump and a decent supply for a BEV charger might cause a few issues at some houses.

[myglaren]

£5,000 if you swap your gas boiler for a heat pump.

Beeb

There must be a catch.

[white exec]

Interesting to compare heat pump output with a gas boiler.
To get to the 30...50,000 BThU output (do I remember my old units right?) of a typical domestic gas boiler, you would either need a substantial heat pump, at a currently substantial price, or a total overhaul of the property's insulation.
Either way, I think £5k subsidy won't help many, except the fairly well off.

A/C units in the UK were hideously over-priced. Things may have changed (?) since we last lived there, but A/C two-part (split) units here can be had for as little as €200, or major branded ones (Panasonic, Daikin...) for €600. Output of these is around 3kW-equivalent of conventional heating, at around 900W consumption. Good for one large room.

There's no obvious reason why A/C and heat-pump units should be expensive (apart from profiteering from a "new" technology, which they aren't). There's not a lot to them, and almost all are now made in China - even the top-brand ones.

One interviewee on BBC this morning (with a ground-source heat pump, which cost £11k, he said) did add a note of reality. His fuel bill (electricity now, previously gas) had remained the same. The benefit was more to the planet, rather than his wallet.

[NewcastleFalcon]

£5,000 if you swap your gas boiler for a heat pump.

Beeb

There must be a catch.

Will it follow the pattern of electric car home chargers. Very suspicious that the price of installations and equipment increase in line with the level of the subsidy available.

Heat pump manufacturers, on the back of the strategies of governments around the world, must see the current shortage of supply , and and immense potential for future volume of sales, as an open door just waiting to be walked through. While the gas boiler business may cling on for hydrogen, that is currently looking less and less likely to be available at scale or price over the coming decade, investors are more likely to put their bet on heat-pumps.

Tricky one as to where you get the greatest benefit from, but I think I would go for incentives for manufacturers to scale up production, rather than subsidise installations for the 90,000 over the next 3 years reported. Its a huge chunk of market that has effectively been opened up and primed by Government action, investors in the companies likely to benefit have their role to play in the both opportunity and the risk.

Regards Neil

PS

If anyone wants to do a bit of thread-reading on Heat Pumps, there is a thread here which attempts to capture the wisdom of the assembled FCF throng on Heat Pumps running to 6 pages of On and off topic education and entertainment

Heat Pumps-One for the engineers]